Yellowish / Greenish tinge to brie? And other questions...

[tobyw]

Hi all - New here. Sorry for the long essay, but I have tried making Brie a few times with varying degrees of success, and I have a few questions I hope someone can help with.

One or two batches have been edible, but the problems I am having are:

1. Ripening too fast to let the bloom form. After a couple of weeks, the brie has already gone runny and yellow, but there is only patchy while mould which doesn't appear for weeks, and then only patchily.Normally only on the sides - possibly related to those being where i don't put salt?
2. Brownish/pinkish mould spots appear quite early on, meaning I end up having to cut the cheese so much it ends up looking like a mangy dog.
3. Yellowish / greenish tinge which looks like a mould of some sort, which I am wary of. I am not sure if this is normal, or bad?


Notes about method:
- I do not have anything I can use as a cheese cave, so I am putting them in the fridge in tupperware to ripen.
- The penicillin candidum is going into the milk, rather than spraying.
- I realised only recently that I am supposed to use mesophilic culture and had been using thermophilic which is all I had!
- Never have any problems getting a nice set with a clean break after the time in the recipe
- Don't have (can't afford!) a large brie mould so I am using smaller moulds as you will see from photos below
- Original batches went into the fridge after draining for about a day, while still very moist, with lids on. They lost their shape quickly and ripened very quickly. Mould appeared only after 3 weeks, when cheese was already very runny / ripe.
- Latest batches have drained for over twice as long, kept shape out of moulds, and not wet to the touch. Lids left half off. On these, mould appeared after a week


I think the first batches I made were not left to drain long enough before I de-moulded and put them in the fridge. The result was that I was constantly emptying whey and moisture from the tupperware, and the cheeses flattened and spread out to the thickness of a hamburger. I am not sure if this was the reason for any of the problems above.

With the last batches I have left them to drain for almost two days, which has meant they were much drier and firmed before going into the fridge and did not 'splurge out' when taken out of the moulds. Also, instead of closing the lids of the containers, I covered with cheesecloth and left the lids cocked to allow them some air and hopefully reduce the condensation inside the container. I have not had nearly so much water collecting in the containers, and the cheeses seem drier on their surface when turning each day.

The first of the batches using this approach is nearly two weeks old, and mould appeared after just one week, which is much earlier than I have had before. So I thought things were going well. However, I did still find a couple of spots of reddish/brown mould which I cut out and re-salted.

Today, I was disappointed to find this greenish/yellowish tinge appearing on the surface of cheese. I am not sure if this is normal, or bad.

I am attaching some images of the problems. I am hoping that I have given enough information for someone to diagnose my mistakes and point me in the right direction to rectify them?

If anyone can give me some pointers / observations, it would be much appreciated. Thanks!

1. The dreaded brown/pink mould - appears however dry or moist the cheese seems to be


2. First batch. Went in still very moist and spread flat. No mould appeared for a long time, by which point the cheese was already overripe (and split)


3. First batch - one cheese was edible, and tasted ok (bit ammonia-y) but as you can see, there was that nasty yellowish tinge, which I avoided


4. Bloom only appearing around the sides, and you can see the yellowy tinge around the edges


5. Last couple of batches started out ok. Firm, didn't spread out and mould appeared after a week while cheese still firm


6. Last batch after one week. Bloom appearing and still firm, but that yellowish tinge has now started appearing on the edges.

[Rain Frances]

Hi Toby I can't answer your question but welcome to the forum. I have the same "cave" set up as you do and I'll soon be trying Camembert and I hope that one of the members here can give you some advice, I'd love to hear what might help.

Rain

[Gregore]

This yellow tinge is totally normal , probably a little b linens from the surface being a little wet .

Let them air out more be fore eating and ammonia will

Other than that they look good

Enjoy

[Andrew Marshallsay]

Let them air out more be fore eating and ammonia will

I think that Gregore means that the ammonia will evaporate.
Your idea that they needed to drain longer may well be correct and this may be part of the cause of the runny texture. The other usual culprit is too high a temperature leading to overly rapid ripening.
I am surprised that the PC is taking so long to cover the surface. I keep my Camemberts at about 13C until I get a good coverage, which is generally about a week, and then move them to 7-8C. They are good after a further 5-6 weeks.
You may well be right about the salt. I find that the PC appears around the edges before the top and bottom. Could you be adding too much salt?
The presence of B Linens would probably indicate too much humidity as it can only compete with PC at very high humidity.

[Gregore]

Yes some how I forgot to finish that sentance .

And the pc is taking so long becuase they are in the fridge instead of a cave .

I recomend you get a cooler and use ice packs bring it down in temp , this will give you much better results than a fridge at fridge temps . Multi ice packs swapped out each day should work well

[awakephd]

Agree with the above - your first batches were way too wet. Mold should appear after a week or so, but really needs to stay at 50-55° during this time. Then once well covered with PC, move to the cold fridge, either wrapped in breathable cheese paper or still using ripening boxes.

As for the yellow/green mold -- I'm not seeing it in the pictures - ?? What I am seeing looks to me like the yellowish-cream color of geotrichium, which is normal and expected for this type of cheese. However, if there is a yellow-orange-red patch, others are surely right that you're getting some b. Linens - if it smells like stinky feet, that's definitely it. Not harmful, but may not be the flavor you want; this is the ripening agent in Limburger and other "stinky cheese."

[tobyw]

Thank you for all your replies. I wondered if using thermophilic culture instead of mesophilic was the problem. But it sounds like the problem is in the drying/ripening stage not in the formation of the curd etc.

The other usual culprit is too high a temperature leading to overly rapid ripening.

It's interesting because the ones which I left to drain at room temperature for longer have bloomed earlier but seem to be firmer. Which I suppose points at it being the lack of draining which made them go runny too soon.

I am surprised that the PC is taking so long to cover the surface. I keep my Camemberts at about 13C until I get a good coverage, which is generally about a week, and then move them to 7-8C. They are good after a further 5-6 weeks.

I now have 2 batches in the fridge - a 2 week old batch and a 1 week old batch. Both of them drained for 2 days at room temperature (covered in a large clean cloth). The 2 week old batch now has mixed degrees of bloom. One of the cheeses has bloom only on the sides, the other has a thin covering all over one side and nothing much on the other! They are in the same box.

You may well be right about the salt. I find that the PC appears around the edges before the top and bottom. Could you be adding too much salt?

I'm adding about a 1/4 of a teaspoon to each side and rubbing in.

The presence of B Linens would probably indicate too much humidity as it can only compete with PC at very high humidity.

I think you are right. The fridge is humid. I do get confused about how everyone says the PC needs humidity but also doesn't! Many recipes say to seal the containers but this leaves me with lots of condensation inside. I've tried scrunching up paper towel and leaving that inside but it made no noticeable difference. I think I might need to invest in a hygrometer and a house with enough space for a cheese fridge.

[tobyw]

As for the yellow/green mold -- I'm not seeing it in the pictures - ?? What I am seeing looks to me like the yellowish-cream color of geotrichium, which is normal and expected for this type of cheese.

Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the 'worst' of it. There is a post here which shows what I was getting. No replies to it though.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=12594.0

It has the colour of a luminous yellow marker which is what had me worried... is this what you mean? I didn't use geotrichium in the cheese, so could this develop naturally?

[Andrew Marshallsay]

To clarify, when I said that too high a temperature causes early ripening, this really applies once the bloom has formed.
1/4 of a teaspoon of salt per side is not excessive so we can put that theory to rest.
Another possibility that occurs to me is that 2 days before salting might be a little long. I have had my best results at about 30 hours. The extra time would probably lower the pH which could increase the ripening rate. A shorter draining time and higher pH certainly has the opposite effect and the little devils never go runny. I don't know whether a lower pH would affect the PC but it could be worth considering.
As for the yellow stuff, the fact that the other post didn't attract any replies may mean that nobody knows what it is. For what it's worth, it doesn't look too concerning to me.

[Gregore]

The yellow in the other post is not toxic , but when you have a lot of it it can have a bitter taste from my experience .  As for the name of it , I forget at the moment .  I sometimes get it on my reblochons.

[tobyw]

The yellow in the other post is not toxic , but when you have a lot of it it can have a bitter taste from my experience

Thanks Gregore. Any idea what makes it appear and/or how to prevent it?

[awakephd]

Toby, the post you linked to says that you are making two bries from 10 liters of milk. If you are only using 1/4 tsp salt per side of these, then you are not using enough salt. That would work out to 1 tsp of salt for 10 liters of milk. For comparison, when I make a 2.25 gallon batch of cam/brie, I use a total of 4.5 tsp of salt on the cheeses - more than 4 times as much!

I see better what you are referring to as the bright yellow. No, this is not geo, but some other mold. Yes, geo does occur naturally, but it is a good idea to include a tiny bit in your make as well - the geo helps to prepare the surface of the cheese for the PC to take root.

I'm guessing that the too-wet curds, no or inconsistent geo, and slow coverage of the PC is leaving open the opportunity for other, unwanted molds to take root. Note that too-little salt has an effect here as well; the salt will help draw out some moisture and tighten up the rind a bit.

I don't recall seeing the recipe/process that you are following - ? If you want a "tried and true" recipe / process, do a search on the forum for "Malembert" - the nickname that Mal (OzzieCheese on the forum) uses for his makes. This is what I follow, and it works exceedingly well!

[OzzieCheese]

Hi y'all,
Just a quick salting guide I use is a single crystal salt layer all over. I hand salt mine and each gets approx. 1 teaspoon each rubbed all over. 

have a look at this link and it shows how much I use.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,14727.0.html

Doing Malemberts at the moment. 

Pm me if you have any questions - happy to try to answer them.

Mal

[tobyw]

Thanks all for your suggestions.

Here are some pictures of the batch which is not 2.5 weeks old. They have a reasonable coat of PC on one side, and patchy growth on the other. I've been flipping them daily for the entire time. They seem to have developed a hard yellowy rind which I can't tell if it's normal or not.


Questions -

1. Do they look ok? Or is that hard yellowy rind a problem?
2. Should I wrap them now or wait for more PC coverage?
3. Am I going to be able to eat them?!

[awakephd]

If you have the breathable cheese paper for wrapping, I would wrap now. (Don't use wax paper or anything like that.) Give it 3-4 weeks, until it feels squishy throughout. Yes, I think this batch will be edible! I wouldn't worry about the edges.