Author Topic: Is this normal for a Gouda?  (Read 337 times)

Offline mikey687

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Is this normal for a Gouda?
« on: January 04, 2018, 04:43:19 PM »
I was trying to do a natural rind on a Gouda and it was going OK with occasional brushing to keep the outside moulds under control but I had a few openings in the rind from a bad job at pressing and the blue was starting to work it's way inside.

So it's now been 6 weeks, but I decided to cut it in half to check the inside and if was OK, wash it with vinegar and vac bag it.

There is a bit of blowing but not a great deal, but I have no experience if this is normal for a Gouda? I used a standard cheese making mother culture from Holland but it had no details on the cultures inside it so I'm not sure if it contains something that might generate a bit of CO2.

Texture otherwise is nice, it smells OK but a little imature. It melts wonderfully, and tastes pretty good as a melted cheese!

Should I keep going with the vac bagging idea do you think?
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Offline scasnerkay

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2018, 06:23:06 PM »
It looks like mechanical openings in the cheese. Pressing under the whey will help with that. You can compact the curd with your hands under the whey in the pot, and transfer it in large pieces to the lined form. Or you can pack the form with the curd, and put the form plus curd under the whey in the pot for the first light pressing.
You mention openings in the rind. Perhaps you did not press sufficiently. Did you use cheesecloth? For me that makes a big difference. It helps the whey to leave the cheese, and makes for a smoother rind. I find this true even if I use a microperf form.
Susan

Offline mikey687

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 03:03:57 AM »
Hi Susan,

thank you for the reply. I'd not thought of mechanical openings but it does make sense.

I pressed under whey and used a cheese cloth but in this make I'd forgotton that I had issues with the acidification not working fast enough in the hooping stage (I was shooting for a final pH of 5.55 but only achieved 5.65 after 4 hours). I think our kitchen was maybe too cold and the curds were cooling down too fast in the press.

I compensated in the final pressing by putting a huge pressure on, equivalent to Cheddar pressure but it felt like it was too late. Also, the pressure meant I forced the cheese cloth into the rind and it ripped the rind in a couple of places when I tried to remove it (these were the initial non smooth openings in the rind).

I'm going to change the way I do the initial press under whey. At the moment I gather the curds into a pack and put a small weight on (bowl of whey) to consolodate them. Then I move large chunks of this mass into the mould for pressing.

In the future I'm going to try and fill the final mould under whey and do the initial press in the mould under whey, so I don't have to break up the curd mass.

I'm also going to make the kitchen a bit warmer!
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Offline Jeroen B

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2018, 09:11:22 AM »
These holes are mechanical ones. Goudse cheese is not a blowing cheese. If there are holes it should be a very limited number, they should be round or oval and shiny from the inside.

Do you have notes and/or photo's from the making? What culture did you use and how much? What is the PH of the cheese now? At what moment the curd had a PH of 5.65?

If the curds are to dry or to cold, or you have them exposed to the air it can happen that they melt together a little more difficult, bit even than it is possible to get them closed.

Normal pressing weight is around 4 times the weight of the cheese, (on top of the cheese) for 2 - 3 hours. That should be enough.

If you make a Goudse cheese with a lot of holes it should look like the one on this photo. Normally it will be less.


Jeroen

Offline mikey687

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2018, 06:42:46 PM »
These are my making notes...

The culture is this one:

https://www.cheesemaking.co.uk/cheese-making-cultures/gouda-cheese-making-starter

I don't know what's in it, I've tried to find out but my research got nowhere. I originally made up a 1 litre batch and froze it in sterile ice cubes. When I want to use it, I take a number of cubes, add to warmed sterile milk 16 hours before and leave overnight to reactivate.

The pH measurements are just of the whey (I worked out from a previous make that the cheese pH seemed to track 0.15 below the whey pH during pressing so I use that for ease of monitoring) I was shooting for a final cheese pH of 5.55 which meant I was looking for a whey pH from pressing of 5.7 but I could not get the whey lower than 5.82 (which suggests the final cheese pH was about 5.67 - but I did not directly measure it). The room was about 17 deg C at the time.
 
I've just ordered a proper Gouda mold and am going to try again but this time I will do the initial compressing under whey in the mold itself so I do not have to reset the curd mass just before pressing.

I remember that it was hard to tear the compacted curd mass to get it into small enough sizes to fit inside the mold. It really seemed to compress well when it was under the whey.
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Offline Jeroen B

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 06:33:11 PM »
Hello Mike,

That is a very nice log you made. It makes things a lot easier.

It is very good that you make cheeses from around 3 kG. Anything smaller than 2 kG will dry very fast and most of the time they will be dry to start with anyway. If you want make Gouda's any lighter than 2 kG you have to adapt the recipe.

1-
The starter you use is the standard starter that is used in 'starting kits'. I never used it, but in the graphs you can see that it is active, so that shouldn't be the problem.
With active starters you use normally about 1% of the total quantity of milk.


Floc time with Goudse cheese is around a factor 3. 12 minutes to the floc point is on spot. Cutting after 36 minutes which is about what you did.

2-
The amount of washing water you used it quite high (More than 1:1) if i compare it with the recipe of traditional Goudse cheese.
Your recipe looks a bit like the recipe of young Gouda.

This is how it should go;
The end PH target is 5.3 - 5.4  That means that you have to remove the whey and hoop at 6.3 - 6.5 in order to keep your calcium (and acid buffers) inside the curd.
Goudse cheese has no lactose left just before brining. Whatever you do, the PH is not dropping anymore at that stage. That means that all lactose is converted by the starter bacteria. To prevent a cheese becoming to acid we wash a part of this lactose out by diluting the whey with water. If you use to much water the Ph can stay to high. The opposite is also true, with to little water (or to little stirring) to much lactose is left behind and the cheese will end up with to much acid.

(If the latter happens the cheese will be white, dry, crumbly, sticky in the mouth and possibly sour. Whenever that happens you have to change the name of the cheese. You call it Cheddar)
(Thats a joke   ;) )


Ofcourse you have to adjust the recipe to the milk you use. After a few makes you will know how the milk reacts.

3- After pressing i missed on step in your log. 'Rechten' or if i translate that "straightening'. It has two purposes.

If you use a 'normal' mold and cheese cloth you will end up probably with a little edge on the top side of the cheese. After cutting it off you have to put the cheese back -top side under- into the mold, without cloth without follower. Cover the mold with a moist cloth. In the same time all the lactose thats left can be converted to acid. The proces takes 8 - 12 hours. The cheese should be kept warm the entire proces. The minimum is room temperature. (And of course you keep it warm while pressing) Some cheesemakers will leave the cheese the night over.

The side where you did cut of the edge (is still very soft), and will be straightened with a nice round edge by the bottom of the mold in the proces as well. All marks will disappear.

Directly after straightening you can drop the cheese in the brine. Brine temperature should be 12 - 15 degrees C, and the brine strength about 18 - 20 Be. Do not use saturated brine by all means.

4- Temperature is very important. I noticed in your log that the kitchen was quite cold. That might have a lot to do with the problem you encountered with the curd refusing to melt together. The curd temperature should be kept up while pressing and straightening.

 
5-
Hooping and molding; Goudse is not (pre) pressed under the whey. After the last stirring stage you let the curd sink and ripen for about 5 - 15 minutes. If you want you can push (a little bit) with your hands to make is a coherent mass but it isn't required. Just get rid of the whey and put the curds as quick as you can in the mold. Warm the mold with whey before. After molding get the follower in, and press lightly with the hand. Leave it like that for about 10 - 15 minutes. You might turn the mold up side down for a while. After that put it under the press and start pressing with (max) 4 times the weight of the cheese. Pressing is ready when the rind is closed. It will take 2-3 hours.

In your case i wouldn't be to worried about the PH. After brining the PH will go down slowly if there is any lactose left. (Brining and cooling will slow down the process, but not stop it completely, except for in the rind) The temperature and the pre-pressing under the whey were probably the reason that the curds did not melt together totally.

By the way: the structure of the cheese as it is now would be perfect for a Blue Gouda. Just do the same make and add a little PR.

It might be interesting to measure the PH of the cheese now.
Another question, did you add CaCl?

Hope this helps.

Jeroen


 

Offline mikey687

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 07:17:52 AM »
Thank you Jeroen, that is an absolutely invaluable set of information. I'm going to include all your details into my next Gouda make (hopefully later this week).

I know I missed out the 12 hour cool down period before brining. No good reason for that, and I'll make sure I include it next time.

I do not add CaCl because I use raw milk, I also find that I really do not need to add any Annatto dye either because the milk is from Jersey cows and has a lovely yellow colour by itself.

I started researching Blue Gouda after I saw the holes! I did not really find many refences to it on tis forum, but it's good to know it's possible (I like blue cheeses  :))

Can I ask which type of starter you would normally use?

I'm still a real beginner at this so I'm happy to get cheese that is edible, but my goal for Gouda is to create the longer aged versions with the protein crystals formed and the deep caramel flavours!
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Offline Jeroen B

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 08:59:41 AM »
Welcome Mike,

Actually i think you are doing quite well. Goudse can be a pain to make and you seem to get close with only the second try. That is not bad at all.

Very good to use the raw Jersey milk. That should have a really high fat content. It does takes more work and maybe you have to brine a little longer, but it will be worth the effort.
If the milk is cooled below 7 degrees C you have to add CaCl anyway. I did not know if you get the milk warm from the cow or if it is cooled for transport. You are right about not using Annatto. I don't know anybody using it.

Blue Gouda is easy; Make Gouda to your taste, a little more acid than normal, add the PR to the milk when making, let the curd dry a little bit after draining the whey (crumbled not packed) crumble it into the mold and press light and short to get a cheese with a lot of holes. Even the rind does not have to be closed. Pressing here is only to prevent the cheese falling apart later. When the blue comes up pierce the cheese to makes holes for the oxygen and ripen to your taste.

I would advise to use Danisco MM 100 or 101 and/or Flora Danica to start with. They make good cheese and are forgiving in use. The sachets needs to be kept in the freezer. The best way to measure the powder is by weight. The netto weight is on the package and also the amount of liters you can use it for. You will need one of those jeweller scales to measure it off. You can use the tiny spoons as well, but it is not a very accurate method. There is a margin from +- 15%

Do not forget to get them out of the freezer a half hour before you need them to warm up a little bit. If you open the bag when it is still frozen moist out of the air will get into it and ruin your starter, which is going to misbehave badly. After using it you should close it tightly and put it back in the freezer directly.

The powder starters work very fast, and if you use to much your PH is going to gallop away from you. I do know many people that only use 50% of the recommended amount with good results.


You should be able to get it in the UK, otherwise you can look here:
http://www.shop-kaesereibedarf.de/kaesekulturen/kaesekulturen/

And if you want to experiment with a very special rennet you can look here:
http://www.shop-kaesereibedarf.de/lab/naturlab/

I use the bioren labpaste myself and are quite happy with it. With this stuff you need to weight the amount you need as well. Not using spoons. The density can vary.

If your goal is the very old Goudse cheese with crystals you need a recipe for 'old' Gouda, which is different than the 'young' Gouda version. It is my favourite too.
If you want i can translate the official and traditional Gouda recipes for you. You still have to adapt them to your own way of working and to the milk you are using of course, but thats a matter of a few makes. That is also true for the changes you have to make the year round, because of the changing milk properties.

If you like that i will look them up and translate. Only give me a few days because i have to run up against a few nasty deadlines this week.


Jeroen


Offline mikey687

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 02:11:16 PM »
I have a lot of cultures I bought this year as I have a lot of different cheeses I plan to try, but ironically the one I did not get was M100 or Flora Danica!

I made a good cheddar (real not a "Gouda gone wrong"  :D) a couple of months ago and used C101. I have some sachets of this left but it will be minus the biovar diacetylactis so no small holes.

The farmer I get the milk from takes it directly from the milking line after the chiller but before it enters the storage tank so I get fresh milk from that morning. I maintain it's temperature during transport and usually expect to use it as soon as I arrive so it is usually around 6 deg C. The storage overnight in the last attempt was unusual.

I don't want to put you to any extra work, you have already helped a lot, but if you are willing to translate the traditional recipes I would be fascinated to give them a go once I have the basic Gouda working well. That would be awesome.

Please take your time though, I think I have a few iterations to go yet...
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Offline curiouser_alice

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2018, 10:46:04 PM »
What a great start to a great cheese.  I hope this one tastes delicious and good luck next time around. 

Offline 5ittingduck

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Re: Is this normal for a Gouda?
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 12:01:17 AM »
I make a lot of Gouda with raw milk. 
All of mine retain some mechanical holes.  I also vac pack mine.
I have noticed the gouda I make with Jersey milk has a slightly looser texture and looks quite like yours.
It doesn't affect the final taste, but sliced, the cheese is fragile.
This year I am making larger cheeses, pressing a little firmer, and drying longer. My textures have improved, though I have not made a 100 percent Jersey this season (using jersey Holstein cross).