Author Topic: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold  (Read 5488 times)

Offline John (CH)

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Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« on: September 01, 2009, 07:02:25 PM »
Two of my currently 4 natural rinded cheeses have thin white deposit forming on part of their rind.

First picture is my 4 lb/1.86 kg whole cow's milk Gouda #6 at 15 days. The rind where white was on bottom thus the imprint of the mat it was sitting on. Second is my similar sized also past & homogenized cow's milk Havarti #1 at 11 days old. Photo's are more dramatic than in real life (camera effect).

My questions are: What is it, is it a deposit or mold, did I do something non-optimal to make it appear, is it a concern, should I try and rub it off and if so with what?

Appreciate any advice . . . John.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2009, 07:45:43 PM »
Geo 13, or a variant.  It could be another white but the spottiness and short mycella are pretty geo looking.

This is a good mold.  Hold the cheese up to your nose, close your eyes and take a good huff of it.  It should remind you of a sweet smelling root cellar.  Kind of earthy with faint hints of fermentation.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 10:21:34 PM by FRANCOIS »

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2009, 08:17:59 PM »
I've seen that.  Good to know Francois.
Wayne A. Harris - in vino veritas

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 10:21:06 PM »
When you do your parmensans, romanos, provalones and asiagos for grating that white powdery mold is necessary for good flavor.

The interesting thing is once you get the white powdery mold unless you get your cheese wet it will never get the green bad mold again. Don't know why but it's like a safey net.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 10:23:03 PM »
yes,  it is.  geo grows quickly and is a very common placeholder/surface preparer for other microflora (like b. linens).  In fact if you don't use geo on a b. linen rind and you are anywhere near blue, it wil be almost impossible to keep the blue off your rind.

Offline John (CH)

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2009, 04:26:32 AM »
Many thanks Francoise and others, and thanks for the scent description, indeed it does smell good. Will not rub off and leave as protective coat.

Offline Zoey

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 04:41:10 AM »

Thanks from me too, I've seen this and I'm happy to hear it's not a problem, since it seems impossible to get rid of it. ;)

Since you say it's good, I wonder if it should be spread to other cheeses in the cave? Probably could do that by brushing or similar? I'm not buying any geo or other cultures since I'm hoping to be able to make pretty traditional cheese, and I believe our ancstors didn't have powdered cultures :)

Offline John (CH)

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2009, 04:54:10 AM »
Francoise, in above you said:
Quote
In fact if you don't use geo on a b. linen rind and you are anywhere near blue, it will be almost impossible to keep the blue off your rind.

In these two cheeses I only used standard Danisco's Choozit Mesophilic MM100 as my starter culture, no Geotrichum candidum or Brevibacterium linens. Also, I haven't made any blue for 7 months so assume should be gone and I should be safe.

For a natural rind cheese, and no blue in area, should you always add a geo to form a safety coating, even if don't add a B linens (which I understand is normally for a washed rind type cheese, correct)?

Thanks all.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 03:07:09 PM »
For a natural rind, unless you are doing a parm or similar, there is always food there for microboes.  I guess I always jsut assumed I'd see dit with soemthing rather than fight natural stuff.  Every cheese we make inour plant and every cheese I made in the US, with the exception of hard italians, waxed cheeses and of course fresh, had a microflora rind of some kind.  I suppose you don't have to, but if it's exposed you will get all sorts of things trying to grow on it.  If you think about it, there aren't very many cheeses like that traditionally.  It's too labor intensive and inconsistent to try and have a bare, clean rind on most cheeses.

With that said, yes I use geo and really anything else that facnies me at the time to create a rind, whether it be cultures, liquor, wine, beer etc...

Offline John (CH)

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 06:24:25 PM »
Francois, thank you very much for the detailed reply 8), especially as the books I have give little detail on this subject.

Sorry this thread is off topic, but my understanding is:
1) Natural Rind is just a term for no physical barrier between cheese and atmosphere, such as wax, cloth bandage and lard, or vacuum plastic.
2) 100% "clean" Natural Rinds are very difficult to maintain as always food on rind for microbes/molds etc and thus always very susceptible to mother nature's ambient - atmospheric microbes/molds/bacterias etc.
3) Therefore rather than try for a 100% "clean" Natural Rind, inoculate your cheese with a microflora of your choice that will hopefully dominate, and beat out mother nature.
4) Example inoculants are some sort of manufactured Geotrichum candidum which can be added directly to the milk when adding starter culture or post pressing by bathing or rubbing cheese with something alive like liquor, wine, beer or even oil.

So couple more questions if your anyone has time (sorry):
1) Any other natural rind inoculant choices beside geo's for direct adding during making?
2) Is not Gouda a "clean" Natural Rind or is something added?
3) If not using geo, how long after pressing before bathing or rubbing in an inoculatant of your choice? For example, here in this thread, cheese maker Vella Cheese Company says on their website that they don't rub with their coating of cocoa/pepper/oil until the Monterrey Jack is ~5 weeks old. How do they manage to keep it "clean" during that 5 weeks?

Again sorry for the 101 questions, but I've rally been searching for info like this. If you or anyone knows of where I can read more info on this subject please post.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 08:36:41 PM »
It's difficult to explain these things without face to face interaction and examples to show.  I would say:
1.  There are many many options: p. cand. p. roqu, b. linens, mycadore, mycoderm, geo, p. album, sam, yeasts of every walk of life (kl, dh...), micrococci, lactobacilli....and any combination in between.   

2.  When you talk about clean gouda, I would have to see a photo.  I have never seen a gouda that was either not waxed, painted or covered in a casein label.  Many traditional cheeses are made in the same enviroments they have been done in for generations, so the surfacve microflora exists there naturally - no innoculation is necessary.  For some cheeses that appear to have a pretty clean rind they are scrubbed frequently in a special machine to keep the rind clean until, basically, all the food on the surface of the cheese is gone and nothing can grow anymore.  As an example try leaving a piece of 8 year old parm in your fridger and see what grows on the rind...nothing.  there is too much salt and too little moisture, a condition that has developed over time, for anything to sustain life there.

3.  That all depends on the cultures.  Vella doesn't start smearing until 5 weeks because otherwise the surface pH and msoiture content would cause all soerts of mold and yeast issues.  The rind needs to stabilize first.  I often rush my rinds that are like that and end up regretting it.  It takes more labor to get them back on track.  I'm sure Vella does like everyone else and runs their wheels through a scrubber weekly to keep things clean.  Of course they could also be cheating, I'm not sure what the laws are for natamyacin in the US but they could be dipping their wheels.  It's basically an inhibitor (read antibiotic) that is used in amny places in the world to keep rinds clean.  I assuem they'd have to declare that on their label.

Most cheeses with a rind are either innoculated in the milk, dosed in the brine or added to the wash.  it depends on what you are dosing it with.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2009, 10:50:02 PM »
Gee now you got me thinking John. I have a 4 year old actually it will be 5 years in December asiago in a vacpack that is covered in the white mold. I wonder if I opened the package if I could sprinkle the mold on my other cheeses or use it as a culture to reproduce to my newer cheeses.

 ???

Offline John (CH)

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 09:06:00 PM »
Francois, thank you again for the detailed reply.

1) Thank you for the ideas.

2) On Gouda, I was under the incorrect impression that the rind on the big wheels like the ones in these pictures were "clean" natural, I thought it was a hard dried rind. But when I look closer at the pictures I can see probably what are waxed rinds on the cheeses. I had to search a bit for info on casein label, looks like they are the large labels that one sees on rinds of large wheels of cheese, almost baked in, and are made out of milk proteins. Here's some examples, I assume the Rembrandt is a casein label, what about the Overjarig, is that a casein cover for the whole wheel?

3) Good guess, Vella's wheels before coating look too pristine white, not a mark on them. I haven't seen one of their labels but even if natamyacin is not on it, they could be using it as I think in US you only have to list ingredients down to a certain small percent, natamyacin could be under that point.

Hopefully last question ;D: I have 2 Gouda's and 2 Havarti's between 2.5 to 1.5 weeks old that have no intentional inoculation and which I am incorrectly trying to "clean" natural rind. As I've missed inoculating the milk or the brine, I understand my only/last choice is an inoculation wash. Any recommendations on what I should wash them with to age them longer? I have p cand, geo c, & b linens in feezer, can I make one of them into a wash and how, or do I just choose a beer or wine and go for it?

Again thanks for advice.

Debi, good luck with your forgotten back of fridge Asiago, let us know results if you decide to go for it ;).

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 09:38:14 PM »
Overjarig, is that a casein cover for the whole wheel?    

Yes

3) Good guess, Vella's wheels before coating look too pristine white, not a mark on them. I haven't seen one of their labels but even if natamyacin is not on it, they could be using it as I think in US you only have to list ingredients down to a certain small percent, natamyacin could be under that point.

It would be considered a processing aid anyway.   


Hopefully last question : I have 2 Gouda's and 2 Havarti's between 2.5 to 1.5 weeks old that have no intentional inoculation and which I am incorrectly trying to "clean" natural rind. As I've missed inoculating the milk or the brine, I understand my only/last choice is an inoculation wash. Any recommendations on what I should wash them with to age them longer? I have p cand, geo c, & b linens in feezer, can I make one of them into a wash and how, or do I just choose a beer or wine and go for it?

You can still try for a clean rind.  It will just take more work.  You need to keep the rind dry to stop yeasts but no too dry as they'll crack. If it dries out too much just dab it with some brine.   Brush off any mold that grows and, if it leaves a mark "sand" it back with coarse salt and pat dry.  It's really too late to try and develop an intentional microflora rind, not impossible but probably not worth the effort.

If you wash with beer or wine, wait till you get a nice hard crust to the rind before washing (four weeks of aging at least) then start your washing.  Otherwise you will throw iff the surface chemistry and get all kinds of weird yeast and slimy stuff growing.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Natural Rind - Wild White Geotrichum candidum Mold
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2009, 12:08:13 AM »
Debi, good luck with your forgotten back of fridge Asiago, let us know results if you decide to go for it ;).

John it wasn't forgotten it just aging - but I am curious if the microflora will spread to other cheeses. I almost hate to open it.