Author Topic: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt  (Read 4087 times)

samsen

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Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« on: September 06, 2009, 09:23:27 AM »
Hi,

I need some help, I dont know what went wrong, I followed basic recipe however I couldnt be able to have curds. Could you please help me to understand what went wrong? I am posting below photos of all stages I followed;

1- Sterilization of stewpot with boiling water
2- Adding milk and getting milk (3lt) temperature 32C
3- Adding Yogurt (1 ts) as Mesophilic Starter (I put plain yogurt, just mixed it)
4- Mixed the milk for 1 minute
5- Waited 1 hour
6- Adding Rennet Solution (1 tea spoon -very small- Rennet mixed in 4 tablespoon cold water)
7- Waited 1 hour and nothing happens, and waited more until 24 hours
8- No Clean Break
9- I cut it anyway
10- No Curds as seen on photos
11- Complete Failure...


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samsen

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 09:25:32 AM »
continue to the story...

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 11:44:56 AM »
It looks like you made 3 liters yogurt. Not a failure!

First of all yogurt is thermophilic (heat loving) not mesophilic (intermediate).

Adding one teaspoon of plain yogurt to your milk will just make more yougurt, even with the addition of the rennet. So in that light you were completely sucessfull in your cheesemaking. Congratulations!

Okay I know that's not what you were looking for - you were looking for cheese. When a recipe calls for 1 teaspoon of thermophilic culture it can be misleading. Yes it can be made from yogurt but it is a much higher consentration. You have to make the culture it's not just a teaspoon of yogurt.

I'm sure there is a recipe here somewhere in the but I can't find it ...

This is how  do it -

1. Start with 2 cups of FRESH milk.  Heat it to 185 F (85 C) on the range top or in a microwave.  Be careful not heat to high or the cream will separate.
2. Let the 2 Cups of milk cool to at least 125 F (52 C) room temp.
3. Add one heaping table spoon of FRESH yogurt (either homemade or store bought “live and active culture” type like Dannon plain).
4. Mix the yogurt into the milk thoroughly with a fork or a whisk.
5. Keep the mixture at 110 F (44 C) for 8-10 hours until a firm yogurt has set. This can be done by using a double boiler on a low setting or by placing the inoculated milk into a small CLEAN mason jar placed in a warm water bath.  The bath can be kept warm by placing it on an electric range top at the lowest possible setting (so that ‘ON’ light is just on).  Monitor the temperature closely the first few times you do this and you will become a better judge of the temperature settings of your range top.  This way with future cultures you can set the process up and not worry about it for 8-10 hours. 
6. Pour this culture into a full sized CLEAN ice cube tray and put into your FREEZER. As with all steps of cheesemaking, cleanliness is next to godliness.
7. Once frozen, remove the cubes and put into a CLEAN sealed container or plastic freezer bags.  It is a good idea to label the container to distinguish it from your mesophilic culture.
8. The resulting ice cubes are each 1 oz of thermophilic starter.
9. Add these cubes (thawed) to your recipes as required. The cubes will keep for about one month.

To make more starter simply thaw one cube and use it as the fresh yogurt used in step 3.   


samsen

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2009, 12:23:25 PM »
Hi Debi,

Thank you very much for very detailed explanation, now I understand what is wrong :) I'll make the starter immediately and will try to make cheese again.

cheers
samil

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2009, 01:23:06 PM »
Good luck hon! Sometimes we say things that are not very clear. Hope this helps.


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Offline John (CH)

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 11:45:28 PM »
Samsen, as Debi says, if no manufactured freeze dried starter cultures, then yogurt can be used as a Thermophilic Starter Culture, for Mesophilic, use Buttermilk via the recipe here. And yes looks like you made a large batch of yogurt ;).

Debi, the recipe you supplied is how to make yogurt and store excess in freezer right? I think Samsen was trying to make some sort of cheese.

Samsen, I think there are two problems:

First, an inadequate amount of starter culture, one teaspoon is probably the amount of freeze dried super concentrated manufactured starter culture. If your recipe calls for thermophilic starter culture, then yes you can use yogurt, if you need mesophilic starter culture then you can use buttermilk after strengthening it as per the above link. For either I would use 1 ounce/30 ml per liter of milk, not one teaspoon.

Second, no rennet curd set, even after 24 hours, curd did get in photo's is probably from natural lactic set. The no rennet curd set can be from a range of reasons. Some questions:
  • What type of milk, ie cow, goat?
  • Is the milk raw or pasteurized?
  • Is the milk store bought?
  • Is the milk whole, 2% fat, 1% fat, skim?
  • Did you add any CaCl2 before adding the rennet?
  • Can you tell us about the rennet, how old, where got from, single strength, double strength, how stored?
  • The water you diluted the rennet in, does it have chlorine in it, did you use dilution glass for anything else before the rennet, how long from dilution to adding to milk?
  • How did you mix the diluted rennet into the milk, method and time?
  • After stirring in the rennet, did you stir again after a few minutes?
I'm sure there are other possibilities but it's late and I'm tired, so this is a start.

Lastly, what type of cheese were you trying to make?

Cheers, don't worry, we'll get this problem solved!

Offline pam

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 10:12:26 AM »
And lets not forget Lebneh (yogurt cheese); I mix it with herbs and/or home-canned green chillies and spread on crackers, chips, tortillas, pita..... or just eat it with a fork. After I too made 3 gal of yogurt overnight that's what I did. Then I made ricotta from the whey.

"Once you can make yogurt, it is a very simple process to produce this simplest of cheeses.  Merely draining the whey from yogurt produces this soft, tart Middle Eastern cheese.  Nearly fool proof, delicious results. It can be made by hanging lightly salted yogurt in a clean cloth, permitting the whey to drip into a bowl.  It is delicious served with pulverized spearmint and olive oil as a dip with lightly toasted pita bread."
Be content with what you have - Rejoice in the way things are - When you realize there is nothing lacking - The whole world belongs to you
- Lao Tse

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 11:55:35 AM »

Debi, the recipe you supplied is how to make yogurt and store excess in freezer right? I think Samsen was trying to make some sort of cheese.


Nope homebrewed thermophilic starter John.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 12:46:28 PM by DeejayDebi »

samsen

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 12:42:04 PM »
CH,

I think I understand the mistake I did from the explanations of Debi, but I also try to answer your questions since I am a real rookie so that I may learn more :)

- What type of milk, ie cow, goat? cow milk
Is the milk raw or pasteurized? pastorized milk
Is the milk store bought?yes, store bought milk
Is the milk whole, 2% fat, 1% fat, skim?it was standard 2% fat milk
Did you add any CaCl2 before adding the rennet?No, I didnt use CaCl2, just yogurt and rennet

Can you tell us about the rennet, how old, where got from, single strength, double strength, how stored?the Rennet that use is standard local brand Liquid Microbial Rennet, (http://www.mayasan.com/mr.html) but I dont know if it is single strengt nor double


The water you diluted the rennet in, does it have chlorine in it, no, I use bottled water
did you use dilution glass for anything else before the rennet, I think glass was clean, I used a clean glass but I didnt strelize it
how long from dilution to adding to milk? mmh, actually since I prepared everything first than I started, so it is like ~1,5 hours
How did you mix the diluted rennet into the milk, method and time?I poured it slowly (as seen at photo) and stir it for about 20 sec
After stirring in the rennet, did you stir again after a few minutes? No, I didnt stir milk after first stir

I was actually try to made very simple turkish cheese which we call it as 'white cheese'

Pam,

Thanks for labneh cheese suggestions, I was very upset about the result so I never thought about using the yogurt result (which I know now:) )



thanks for support
cheers
samil


Offline John (CH)

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 03:22:03 PM »
Samsen

OK so I think you are trying to make Turkish Beyaz Peynir / White Cheese which is a feta like brine preserved cheese. Here's one recipe and a second here. Feta normally uses mesophilic culture, for Beyaz Peynir it looks like you use both. In your recipe after you cut the curds do you heat the milk and if so to what temp?

Also, historically these types are goat's milk cheeses, for Feta, if using cow's milk then you need to add some lipase to give it that piquant taste. Have a look at some of the Feta making records in the Brine Preserved Cheese Board.

OK, the key issue of no curd set. Everything I could think of looks good. It's possible the milk has something in it that is causing the problem, suggest try another brand just in case, also it's not ultra-pasteurized or ultra heat treated long life is it?

The main area I can think of is the rennet. From their website, it looks like Mayasan is a cheese ingredients distributor and from your link you got Valiren Brand liquid rennet correct? Valiren is/was made by US based Valley Research Inc. and it is a Rhizomucor miehei (Mucor miehei) microbial fungal based rennet which is fine. Looks like Valley Research was bought out in July 2008 by huge Danish DSM company.

Rennet is normally recommended to be diluted at 40 to 1 for single strength, you have 4 tablespoons to 1 teaspoon, a ratio of 12 to 1. Next time recommend use more water.

Also, this book says that rennet should immediately be added to the milk once diluted as it becomes unstable when diluted and loses strength. Next time don't try pre-preparing.

I stir my rennet in for 60 seconds, maybe try longer next time.

Do you know how it was stored before you bought it and currently stored? Liquid rennet should be stored in an opaque container as it degrades from UV light, and at refrigerator temperatures, higher prolonged temperatures will result in strength loss. It also becomes weaker if foamed/shaken.

Next batch when you add correct amount of starter culture that will lower the pH which also helps rennet to get a good curd set.

Lastly, while I assume you followed your rennet's package directions on amount, I'd up the amount to maybe 50% more and if want do a smaller test batch.

Hope helps, anyone else have ideas?


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Offline goatherdess

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - No Clean Break > Yogurt
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 08:39:49 AM »
samsen,
You mentioned you didn't use CaCl2. You might want to try adding that since you are using store bought pasteurized (and homogenized?) milk. Make sure you are not using the ultra pasteurized milk. The CaCl2 will help you get a better curd set. Dilute it in water and stir it in just before you add in the diluted rennet.