Author Topic: My Baby Is Swelling Up.  (Read 36863 times)

Likesspace

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2009, 02:44:19 AM »
Sailor,
Thanks for the information.
I do not have the Aromatic B culture, but I do have MM100 which I will try.
I've made a note of the recipe I wrote out that if I do not get the proper eye formation I will get some Aromatic B and give it a shot.
Not to try your patience, but I do have one more question.....
Did the 4 gallon batch completely fill your 7.5" mold or do you feel that a 5 gallon batch would be better?
My cheese pot will barely hold a 5 gallon batch but with a regular swiss I've always used this amount due to how small the curd size ends up being.
Thanks again for all of the information you've provided and for showing all of us that a proper swiss is possible in the home setting.
You have no idea how much I appreciate this.

Dave

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2009, 03:14:59 AM »
So a meso culture like flora danica which has Lactis biovar diectylactis works with the swiss as long as we keep the temperatures in the meso working conditions.

If B. Diecetylactis is creating more CO2 than the Propionibacterium Shermanii and creating the wholes we want, why we bother with P. Shermanii at all? Does P. Shermanii add anything to the taste and aroma? Does P. Shermanii with B. Diecetylactis creates bigger wholes? Thinking that the both bacteria is creating CO2. The reason I am asking is, there are some swiss cheeses down in the supermarket with huge wholes in them, I wonder how we can get those?

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2009, 05:09:38 AM »
Likespace - I feel the Aromatic B is very important to the process. MM100 won't give you the same results. In fact Peter Dixon's recipe does suggest using Aromatic B. That's why I tried it.

Gurkan - Only the Baby Swiss uses a meso culture. All other classic Swiss types that I know of use Thermo cultures. An MM100 culture, contains 3 bacteria including L.B. Diecetylactis (which does produce a little CO2). However, Aromatic B  also contains a 4th bacteria - Leuc. m. cremoris, which produces more CO2. However, none of these Meso bacteria produce more CO2 than Propionic shermanii. They just add to the mix. The Propionic is also very important to the Swiss flavor, so you can't eliminate it. Flora Danica is the same as Aromatic B, but the proportions are different.

Yes, classic Swiss has really big eyes. Baby Swiss generally has smaller holes.

I would like to try using Leuc. m. cremoris on an Emmental, but heating to 120F is not good for a Meso bacterium. So, I'm thinking about adding a little Leuc. m. cremoris mother culture AFTER the cooked emmental has cooled back down below 100F. I know that the bacteria won't be directly integrated into the curds in the usual way, but I feel that the bacteria will migrate and do their thing anyway. Top of my list to try in 2010.

Offline Gürkan Yeniçeri

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2009, 11:34:14 PM »
Thanks for the clarifications Sailor. I will try this baby swiss, it is also on my list after I built camembert humidity chambers as per your instructions. I already feel like I need a bigger fridge and room. :)


Likesspace

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2009, 01:10:08 AM »
Sailor...
I really do appreciate you taking the time to provide  all of this information.
I will take your advice and purchase some of the Aromatic B culture for future use.
This weekend I guess I'll continue to concentrate on Gouda and Cheddar until my new culture arrives.
Once it does get here, look out....Baby Swiss is my next cheese to begin working on.
Thanks again.

Dave

vogironface

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2010, 01:11:35 AM »
Sailor,

Been watching this thread with interest.  Very impressive cheese.  I do not have m100 but I do have flora danice.  My thoughts are that they could be substituted.  What are your thoughts?  I would like to make a few of these before things get hot here, probably starting this weekend with a little luck.  Thanks again Sailor for your efforts on helping us, this is a great success.

linuxboy

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2010, 03:35:33 AM »
Peter calls for holding the wheel overnight at 50F after pressing and then brining 12-16 hours for a 4 pound wheel. I brined immediately after pressing for just 6 hours. My rationale was to keep the rind pliable, and I didn't want a high salt content to inhibit the Propionic bacteria. (The finished cheese was NOT lacking for salt).

AFTER brining, I air dried at 55F for a week and then moved it to a warm room temp of 68-70F. Visible swelling started within just 2 days. After 10 days, it started sweating. I was concerned about losing fat, but it apparently was a good thing. I think a higher temp above 65F is VERY important.

I wanted to call these two details out because I want to emphasize their importance. While pressing under whey, hitting pH targets, wheel surface/volume ratio, etc are also important, it is the affinage that makes this cheese work because this is when the Propionic do their work. The optimal temp for propionic (highest volume co2 and propionic acid produced is about 30 C, which is 86 F. However, this is too hot for lactic bacteria and produces defects. So a tradeoff must be maintained between high propionic activity and the rest of the cheese. This to me is somewhere around 70-75 degrees. If it's too cool, the gas production will be slow, and the end result will be smaller holes and less propionic flavor.

The second important item is the salt content. Propionic bacteria are very sensitive to salt. Whereas a cheddar needs 2.2%+ (depends on fat content), a swiss does best at around 1%.

The third item is rind plasticity. This cheese swells. The rind must hold. Francois has mentioned he paints his swiss cheeses with PVA, which is one way to help with rind plasticity by introducing a protector. If you don't want to use PVA, one option is to use a less concentrated brine not at full saturation. This will also help with the salt uptake and dispersion throughout the cheese.

The fourth item is drying the rind and building it up before aging in warmer temps. Again, this is part of rind development so that the cheese does not burst. It doesn't have to be a week at a lower humidity and temp, but the rind needs to dry a little. Waiting before moving to warmer temps also gives the cheese body a chance to come together more and fuse. So what's left are small mechanical inclusions and fissures that serve as the seed points for the co2 to come together and make holes. Some emmethaler cheesemakers wait as long as 2-3 weeks before moving the cheeses to warmer temps.

This is just the science talking for anyone interested in why this cheese turned out so well. Sailor has posted some great practical guidelines for making this cheese. Kudos and thanks :)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:15:39 AM by linuxboy »

vogironface

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2010, 03:39:40 AM »
Linuxboy,

When I read PVA I think poly vinyl acetate or white Elmer's glue.  Are talking about the same thing?

linuxboy

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2010, 03:45:39 AM »
Yep, mixed in with a little Natamycin or sorbate for mold control, it's used to paint cheese or as a substrate before putting on wax. I'm not a huge fan because once glued, it stays on, and I like to eat cheese rinds. :)

vogironface

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2010, 03:57:17 AM »
So lynixboy, are you telling us you were not a paste eater in elementary school?  I for one was an avid paste eater.  1972 was a great year for paste, probably only surpassed by 1964, but there isn't much of that left now is there.  I remember meeting the paste dealer behind the slide during recess.  for my lunch money and a promise for more tomorrow I could have two days worth of adhesive goodness, complete with a boar hair brush. 

Anyhow, I digress.  Being such a connoisseur of fine paste I may find this newcomer to the market, this PVA fake stuff, a bit disappointing.  I bet there isn't a single animal byproduct in it, let alone any hooves and hides.  I think I will also skip the PVA altogether.

Sorry Sailor, I present to you your topic back, a little worse for wear but for the most part still usable.

FarmerJd

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2010, 04:12:22 AM »
1975 was also a great year for paste (i was 6 then). Can't you still smell the stuff? ;D

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2010, 04:45:35 AM »
Ben - Flora Danica contains the same bacteria, but in different proportions. If that's what you've got, go 4 it.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2010, 04:09:38 AM »
I would be hard pressed to find a place for temps above 70 degrees this time of year.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2010, 04:46:12 AM »
You don't have to heat the whole room. Try a heating pad or a seed starting pad under a ripening box. If the temperature is too low, Swiss types will produce gas slowly and make little farts instead of big farts. >:D

cmharris6002

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Re: My Baby Is Swelling Up.
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2010, 02:13:52 PM »
Beautiful cheese Sailor! I am very impressed with the eye formation. Thank for all the tips.