Author Topic: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream  (Read 9969 times)

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 05:43:06 PM »
MrsKK - The pressure calculation table is my handiwork but the recomendations for how hard to press are from people with a lot more experience than me.

For example, here are Peter Dixon's pressing instructions for the cheddar recipe on his website.

"Press with enough pressure to create a smooth rind by the next morning. This is 25 p.s.i. to start. After 30 minutes take off the pressure and tighten the cheese cloths around the cheese. Increase the pressure to 40 p.s.i. for the rest of the time."

I only press cheddar around 4 to 5 psi and get good results. He is suggesting 5 to 10 TIMES the pressure. Peter is VERY highly respected and knows what he is doing, but he is also looking at things from a bigger commercial setup. I agree with John that there are lots of other vaiables such as height, etc. so I have compromised on what I feel is the lower end of acceptable.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 07:42:29 PM »
I think pressures expressed in PSI are processes used for commercial manufacturing of large multiple cheese moulds stacked one on top of the other or in long troths. They need to get it done and on the store shelves as quickly and efficiently as possible to make money.

As my largest mould is only about 10 inches and will never likely hold more than a 7 gallon batch, "pounds" work fine for me. In fact the weight I choose use is based more on how the cheese reacts than a specific weight - and as you all know I am more a believer in pressing light but for longer periods. As I am self taught it is a method I learned over yeas of making cheese with homemade gimoz I figured out through trial and error. It seems many of the old time books that are being discovered online seem to be agreeing with that method. I don't think our forefathers had hydraulic presses.

I have never pressed a cheese with more than about 30 pounds of "weight" and have have very successfully done Cheddars and other hard cheeses for years.

Science is a wonderful thing but don't over complicate a simple process that uneducated albeit very talented people with little equipment but trees and rocks and cloths have done for centuries.

I have found recipes online from old time artisan cheesemakers that simply say use a large rock and set for X hours. Because "my rock" is different than your rock doesn't make it wrong or unworthy of producing a great cheese. Once you find "your rock" - stick with it!  ;)

Baby Chee

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 08:18:59 PM »
True, Debbi.  I've made quite a few cheeses with a mold that supposedly needs a LOT more weight.  And yet my hard pressed cheeses all seem similar in texture to the better store bought stuff.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 04:04:37 AM »
Let's take that to the extreme. Swiss for example is traditionally made in 200 pound wheels 30" or more in diameter. Would you only press with 30 pounds on a wheel like that? For how long? OK, how about the 8' wide cheddar made for the Queen of England? 30 pounds? Or the record Wisconsin Cheddar of 34,951 lb (15,853 kg) produced for the 1964 World's Fair. Probably not pressed with 30 pounds.

As the diameter of the hoop increases, weight is distributed more or less evenly across a given surface area. Using PSI instead of weight is a simple way to standardize PRESSURE from hoop size to hoop size. It is NOT just for commercial applications. Lots of recipes and books (old and new) make referece to PSI instead of weight. Look at 200 Easy Homemade Cheese Recipes page 37 for her definitions of Light (5 to 10 psi), Medium (10 to 20 psi) & Firm (20 to 45 psi) pressures. Her recipes are typically 4 gallon homemade batches, NOT gigantic commercial productions. Peter Dixon talks about PSI on his website.

OK. Pressing light for longer periods. How much longer? Time is an unknown variable. The longer that excess whey stays in the cheese, the more acid that is produced.

Yes, thru trial and error, you could figure out which of the big rocks and the length of time that works best, but by using PSI you can go from a 4" hoop to an 8" or a 24" and get predictable results.


Baby Chee

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 12:33:59 PM »
But wouldn't a large cheese that is 1000 of so lbs. just press itself, in lower levels?  You then have an increasing pressure through the curds, so the top needs pressing, or you can flip it. :P  The follower alone might be big enough to do the job on such large cheeses.

I'm winging it, but I believe there is something there to contemplate.  Is there info on how people pressed giant cheeses of the past? Giant - 4' diameter or greater.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 04:22:03 PM »
No, even a big cheese can't press itself, unless you want a really open texture like a Blue. There has to be sufficient pressure applied equally to the top surface to squeeze out excess whey and meld the curds. Wayne is doing bigger cheeses and using lots more weight. Farmer is using 750 to 1500 pounds on his big press to achieve 10+ PSI. ... and still wanting a better texture.

PSI is a known constant regardless of the cheese size. Weight however is completely variable depending on the hoop size. Sort of like waiting a certain number of minutes until you get a clean break. Yes, that works, but milk chemistry, rennet quality, and temperature can be different every time you make cheese. So the flocculation technique compensates for these variables and is way more accurate with predictable, repeatable results.

Obviously, a large rock CAN work "just as well" as a pneumatic commercial press - as long as you you use the same rock every time and don't change hoop sizes. ;)

Almost anyone can make cheese. It's much harder to make really good cheese with consistent results. When you buy a good beer, you know pretty much exactly what a given brand is going to taste like. If a beer was markedly different every time you opened one, you probably wouldn't buy it. Artisan cheeses are the same way. If they are different every time, they are not marketable.

Baby Chee

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 04:51:35 PM »
No need to shout it out.  I know there are plenty of weight mongers on the forum, but by your own rationale in previous threads, my cheeses pressed in an 8" mold with 50 lbs. should have have problems with bubbles and texture.  Yet, every gouda I open has a brilliant texture and no bubbles or moisture problems.

You might be confusing commercial professionalism with home made cheese produced to be delicious and edible.  I'm not keen on having super hard cheese, but on getting a recognizable product I can enjoy and make consistently.

And on my own path I am curious about the edges of the experience and what people have found through research, experience, success, and failure.

goatherdess

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 12:08:31 AM »
I use a screw-type press (4" & 8"), and after years of doing it I just know by the feel of the screw under my hand if it's right or not. And how I use the screw to create pressure varies with the type of cheese that was put in there - Brick, Romano, Queso Blanco and Parmesan each get their own type of pressure treatment. And I do get consistent results.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 12:17:49 AM »
Sometimes it's just a matter of experince and knowing what your are working with. Good example Goaheardess!

Keep in mind not all cheeses are cheddars. Some require almost no weight or the weight of a few other cheeses. Munenster is a good example practically no weight is needed. A few pounds or a few cheeses.

Although it is fun to build or buy various toys/tools to play with in our hobby it is not the only way to do it. I wouldn't want a newbie to think he/she should give up because they need these big impressive tools. Although I am almost as obsessed with trying different techniques as most.

Baby Chee

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 12:36:02 AM »
I just ordered a food grade stainless steel Bain Marie pot which holds 2.5 gallons, approx.  It's about 9.33" inside diameter and 11" deep.  I'll make a wood follower and drill it up with drainage holes, then see how it fares when I get a big fulcrum press together sometime.

If it works, I have a nice press and mold and follower for under $100.

Available weight would get me up to 5psi.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 01:31:56 AM »
Where did you get the Bain Marie pot from?

Offline DeejayDebi

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FarmerJd

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2009, 03:03:49 AM »
Just getting in on the end of this thread but I had to comment. Baby chee mentioned the weight of the cheese helping press it and it reminded me of a documentary on a a cheese production operation where the cheese was made in a 3 story building and the curds were added to a tube from the 3rd story and the tube went all the way to the ground and at ground level they just cut out the bottom 6 inches or so every time they added some on the top. Continuous operation. Not sure what kind of cheese but it was really just sort of a tourism stunt. Has anyone seen this?

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2009, 03:08:02 AM »
Nope but it sounds really kewl!

Just for clarification purposes. Muester is a good example of a cheese that can pretty much press itself by flipping the molds.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mixing Pasteurized Cow's Milk & UP Cow's Cream
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 03:14:37 AM »
The Bain Marie pots are really cheap on E-Bay. Would make great molds, but stainless steel is really hard to drill.