Moist cheese in danger of going ransid. Opinions please

[vogironface]

In a separate thread Debi and Sailor have commented on a problem I have been having.  Today I have nearly given up and want some thoughts to be shared on this problem.  So, on to the problem.

I have been trying to make some softer cheeses like havarti.  I follow the same instructions Debi uses and press with very  light weight.  I then dry them, in the cave, for several days until very dry to the touch.  I then Vac bag the cheese.  Within a day or 2 I get whey forming in the bag.  It is being drawn out of the cheese from the vacuum pressure in the bag I think.  This causes the cheese to get rancid but every time I dry it and bag again I get the same problem. 

Possible cause I have considered are that my cave appears to be at over 90% humidity if my device is reading correctly.  This may be causing my cheese to retain or perhaps even take on water.  It may also be that I am not pressing hard enough, but I don't think so since I am already using more PSI than Debi does.    A third cause could be that my Vac Bagger is using a lot of suction and creating a lot of vacuum.  But again, I don't think so. 

I have become real frustrated with this since all of my gouda and havarti is harder than it should be and still too wet.

Thanks.

[DeejayDebi]

okay lets look at all the possibilities:

First - I think maybe you are not pressing long enough to drain the cheese. I use lighter weight but I press longer than most - at least 12 to 16 hours normally depending on the look of the cheese and I flip about 6 times drying in between with paper towels before bedtime.

Second - Once the cheese is vac packed it doesn't matter what the humidity in the cave is it's sealed in the bag. It could weat if there was a big difference in temperature between the cheese and the air but that's not likely the answer as it's in the cave not sitting in the hot sun.

Third - Salt? - perhaps you are not brining/salting long enough to help expel the whey?

Fourth - curds where not cooked sufficently to shrink and release whey or the temperature was increased to quickly causing them to hold on to the whey.

[DeejayDebi]

Just had a weird thought ... 

How about if you poke a few tiny holes in the bag and then vaccuum seal it again? It won't seal obviously BUT maybe you could vaccuum the whey out?

[Cheese Head]

Ben, I share your frustration, I can't think of any more ideas than Debi's reply.

I think I read in a different one of Debi's posts that after pressing she air drys outside her cave fridge and she lives in a dry climate.

Also, your curds before pressing could be very different moisture content to Debi depending on their acidity and how much temp and time you washed them for.

All in, I'd keep trying to rescue your cheese with removing from bag, wiping with vinegar (I think the recommendation is), and if possible, leaving in a dryer place for two days before resealing in a new clean bag (don't worry if the rind gets dry, when you bag, the moisture content will equalize and the hard rind will go away) and next batch wash more to shrink curds further before pressing.

[vogironface]

Debi and John,

I am liking the wet curds idea.  I just checked again and every cheese with the exception of a cheddar is wet.  I used the traditional cheddaring  method on that cheese which would allow for more whey to be expelled I think.  So I am thinking that may be the problem.  This raises a follow up question.

Since I am not hanging over your shoulder while you make your cheese Debi, could you explain to me the texture of the curd prior to pressing?  How do you know when it is "done"? 

I really think this is the problem.  I very rarely get a really good clean break with the milk available to me.  To compensate I cut the curd vertically.  I then rest it for 10-15 minutes and cut horizontally.  I rest again and then begin my washing/cooking.  However, even with a 2 gallon batch I end up with a much larger cheese than I would expect and the mold is VERY full.  This leads me to believe you are right Debi.  In addition I do not have a double boiler to fit the stainless pot I use.  It is a challenge to raise the temp slowly on my stove because the curd is at the bottom and still fragile so I can't stir it often until it firms up.  This places it at the hottest part of the pot and thus heats it up quicker than the whey I bet.

My other concern would be a longer cooking time would effect the PH at molding.  I think I will compensate there by not adding as much culture to begin with which should delay the dropping of the PH.

Sorry this is so long, I am trying to be thorough in my explanation in case others are having the same issue.

[Sailor Con Queso]

You should absolutely not wait between your vertical and horizontal cuts. You need to get all of your cuts done as quickly as possible and then let the curds rest for 5 or 10 minutes to "heal".

A good clean break is essential.

1 - Add CaCl2. If you already are using it, add some more.

2 - Add more rennet. Are you testing for flocculation (spinning bowl)? If not, you need to. That will tell you a lot about what is going on with your milk / rennet relationships.

3 - Try adding a little heavy cream to your milk. Even just a cup or 2 in 4 gallons of milk can make a big difference.

4 - Change brands of milk. See if you can find non-homogenized milk at a health food store. If cost is a concern, you can always mix it 50/50 with your regular milk.

If you are ending up with a large volume of curds, then your curds are most likely retaining too much whey.

[DeejayDebi]

Debi and John,

I am liking the wet curds idea.  I just checked again and every cheese with the exception of a cheddar is wet.  I used the traditional cheddaring  method on that cheese which would allow for more whey to be expelled I think.  So I am thinking that may be the problem.  This raises a follow up question.

Since I am not hanging over your shoulder while you make your cheese Debi, could you explain to me the texture of the curd prior to pressing?  How do you know when it is "done"? 

I will post a picture at the end of this post but my havarti curds look like little marshmellows. When you squeeze them gently they loose some whey buy are springy, like marshmellows. They don't mash. Also they taste like curds but warm and softer.

I really think this is the problem.  I very rarely get a really good clean break with the milk available to me.  To compensate I cut the curd vertically.  I then rest it for 10-15 minutes and cut horizontally.

This is not a good idea you are healing the curds to soon and they will tend to hold the whey. Cut them both vertically and horizontallyTHEN heal the curds for about 5 minutes.

 I rest again and then begin my washing/cooking.  However, even with a 2 gallon batch I end up with a much larger cheese than I would expect and the mold is VERY full.  This leads me to believe you are right Debi.  In addition I do not have a double boiler to fit the stainless pot I use.  It is a challenge to raise the temp slowly on my stove because the curd is at the bottom and still fragile so I can't stir it often until it firms up.  This places it at the hottest part of the pot and thus heats it up quicker than the whey I bet.

Is your stove near you sink? With that little heating you could collect water from the sink at the right temperature and pour it into the pot. Use a siphon to add ad remove water from the pot. If you have a double sink you could use one for the cheese and one to test or drain water. Cheese does not HAVE to be made on a stove - you only need a source for water at a givien temperature.

My other concern would be a longer cooking time would effect the PH at molding.  I think I will compensate there by not adding as much culture to begin with which should delay the dropping of the PH.

the point you need to be concerned with is before the wash. Once you add the wash water you can add an extra hour to the heating time and see no significant difference. This is one of the nice parts about washed curd cheeses.

Sorry this is so long, I am trying to be thorough in my explanation in case others are having the same issue.

1st picture is during healing after the intial cut.

I believe the 2nd  picture is at the final drain before hooping the curds. I will try to get beter pictures but my curd shots always blur.

[vogironface]

Thank you Sailor and Debi.

Sailor,
I will test for flocculation next time and let you know what I find.  You had some great advice.

Debi, from your photo I notice 2 things. 1) your curd is so much smaller than mine.  I am always afraid to cut to fine for fear of loosing fats.  I think I could use a whisk to get them smaller.  This would certainly contribute to the wet curd I think.  Correct me if I am wrong, but those curds appear to be about the size of a middle finger nail.   2) that is a great idea to drain whey using your drying matt that way.  Very cool.

I think we may be on the way to a solution.

[Sailor Con Queso]

Follow the recipe. Don't whisk unless it calls for rice grain size.

[vogironface]

Sorry Debi, I didn't get the first pic before and now that I see it I have to ask if you did anything to make the curds smaller between photo 1 and 2 besides cooking.  Your first photo looks like mine do after cutting, but my final curd before hooping is not much smaller than yours in photo #1.  If all you did was cook them then I think we are well on the way to the solution.  Thanks for the photos they are really helping me sort this out.

[DeejayDebi]

Ben - The first picture the curds are about an 3/4 inch wide. The little curds in the picture are about the size of hazelnuts. Hard to tell because one pictures is really close and the other is quiet far away. Oddly enough I don't "whisk" my curds ever! I don't like to shatter the curds. I do however slowly plunge the whisk straight down into the curds and slowly lift it out again, then moce a whisk distance along and do it again all over the vat. This cuts the curds fairly small. The bottom of my whisk is about the size of a fist.

[vogironface]

I am continuing to encounter frustrations with this but have some new information to add.  I have been sealing the cheeses and as they get to wet opening them up again, drying them in the cave and then sealing again.  My gouda seemed pretty dry so I cut a piece tonight.  It has less moisture than cheddar, not quite like Parmesan but it is very dry.  I vac bag it and within a day it is wet inside the bag.  That is new piece of information number 1.

Number 2 is this.  I have also noticed that the ones that seem sour are also cheeses that I dried for several days on the counter under a muslin.  I have 1 gouda that is also wet, but I have not been drying it and when I opened the bag tonight to check there was no sourness. 

So here is a new theory I would like thoughts on.  If, while drying at room temp for several days, the whey started to sour and then it was bagged would that act something like a culture.  Or in other words, any bit of surface whey would sour quickly because there is already a sour spot on the cheese.  If so, then these cheesed could be nearly as dry as a bone and still be getting sour. 

If I combine Debi's idea that the curds are to large and being heated to quickly, then I dry it in the cave or fridge before bagging and then ignore any moisture then perhaps that would be OK.  Otherwise I just can not see how I can ever prevent moisture in the bag, my gouda mentioned above has made me think it is imposable.  Of course as I type this I keep thinking of Debi bagging her cheeses fairly quickly and with no problems and I would bet hers are much wetter than this gouda of mine. 

Does this spark any comment that as not been made already?

[DeejayDebi]

I am continuing to encounter frustrations with this but have some new information to add.  I have been sealing the cheeses and as they get to wet opening them up again, drying them in the cave and then sealing again.  My gouda seemed pretty dry so I cut a piece tonight.  It has less moisture than cheddar, not quite like Parmesan but it is very dry.  I vac bag it and within a day it is wet inside the bag.  That is new piece of information number 1.

Interesting that this is the one you didn’t have a wet cheese on. Sounds like maybe too much heat in the cooking phase or too much stirring.


Number 2 is this.  I have also noticed that the ones that seem sour are also cheeses that I dried for several days on the counter under a muslin.  I have 1 gouda that is also wet, but I have not been drying it and when I opened the bag tonight to check there was no sourness.

Sourness could also be from acidifying too long or adding rennet too late or not firming the curds enough before draining. Considering you have been having problems with “wet” cheeses I suspect not firming the curds sufficiently before draining as the biggest culprit.

So here is a new theory I would like thoughts on.  If, while drying at room temp for several days, the whey started to sour and then it was bagged would that act something like a culture.  Or in other words, any bit of surface whey would sour quickly because there is already a sour spot on the cheese.  If so, then these cheesed could be nearly as dry as a bone and still be getting sour. 

The whey that isn’t drained properly will sour the cheese or make it taste acidity.

If I combine Debi's idea that the curds are to large and being heated to quickly, then I dry it in the cave or fridge before bagging and then ignore any moisture then perhaps that would be OK.  Otherwise I just can not see how I can ever prevent moisture in the bag, my gouda mentioned above has made me think it is imposable.  Of course as I type this I keep thinking of Debi bagging her cheeses fairly quickly and with no problems and I would bet hers are much wetter than this gouda of mine. 

Excessive whey that is trapped in the curds during the cooking stage can’t really be drained to well in the cave. I really thing the problem is not allowing the curds shrink and drain before removing the whey is the issue here. Have you calibrated your thermometer? Maybe it’s reading too low causing you to overheat the curds before they can lose their whey in the cooking phase.

Does this spark any comment that as not been made already

[vogironface]

This is an old thread but I thought I would post the solution and conclusion. 

As discussed the problem was indeed the curds being to big and being cooked to long.  This caused to much whey in the cheese and while drying at room temp they went sour.  I have since made 4 batches of gouda with success.  I have made a cheese knife to cut uniformly, I regulate the cooking more closely, and I do not usually dry my gouda on the counter.  I do it in my cave at 52-55 f.  I could not say if one or all of these variables is the solution or all three but if I had to choose I would say the last is of least importance and the cutting and cooking are of equal importance in preventing the rancid cheese in a vacuum bag.  Thanks to those who helped my win this battle.

[DeejayDebi]

Glad to hear it Ben!

You have to be very careful when first heating the baby curds. I think I metioned before and somewhere else recently that if you raise the temperature to fast it hardens the outter shell so to speak and the whey gets sealed inside. NO amount of pressing can get it out. The cheese will weep and go sour. That is the reason you need to keep the heat to just a few degrees increase in 5 mintues during the early phase of heating otherwise you basically create a water ballon. (Whey-ter ballon?)

Such little things can foul up a cheese "I regulate the cooking more closely" - is a statement that really tells the story.