Author Topic: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?  (Read 4381 times)

Offline Zinger

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Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« on: December 10, 2009, 01:40:29 PM »
My recipe (Ricki Carroll) calls for a curd set time of 1 hour. However, when I do my own floc test using the spinning bowl method, it should take no more than 24 minutes. This is a great disparity, any thoughts?


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Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 02:09:40 PM »
I would ignore Ricky Carrol.  Her time is from addition of rennet to "clean break" which is a poor measure of curd set.  Measure your floc time (should be 10-14 minutes) and multiply by 3 for gouda.  This time is the total time from rennet addition to cut.  I would add CaCl to make sure you get a good hard set.  the floc multiplier can be adjusted either way based on the first batch, but I normally start with 3 for a first batch and go from there.  For raw milk my multipliers vary seasonally from 5 in the winter to 1.5 in the summer for hard cheese.

Offline Zinger

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 02:48:39 PM »
Francois, thanks for your reply. My floc time was 8 minutes, so I allowed 25 minutes for curd set and then checked my break. It was a pretty good break, but I decided to let it set for another 10 minutes - just because. At that point I had a good clean break. I have just stared to use the "spinning bowl" method and have been happy going that route.

Thanks again.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
So your multiplier was then 4.375.  This is really pushing it for gouda. Remeber the longer you let it set, the higher the bound moisture in the curd.  If you didn't have a firm set at 3x floc, waiting won't make it any firmer.  As a comparison, something like a soft ripened cheese I would use a 6x multiplier for.  Fresh cheese gets 12x  or more.  Romano and hard italian cheeses get 1-1.25x.

Wait and see how firm the curd is after molding.  If it's too soft, cut your multiplier in half and make further adjustments from there.

Offline Zinger

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 04:35:09 PM »
Thanks again, I learned something today. But then again I'm always learning something here. I'll report my results later.


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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 04:47:39 PM »
Zinger - 8 minutes is a little fast. Try reducing your rennet just a little and shoot for 10-15 minutes for flocculation. Trust the spinning bowl and cut your curds on schedule - regardless. It's that exact timing that will help give you consistent moisture in your finished cheese.
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Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 04:55:27 PM »
Set time time is very temp. dependent too, more so than rennet dependent.  I would verify temp. first and change rennet from there.  Setup can also vary by the milk casein make up. 

Offline Zinger

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 05:48:08 PM »
My temp was precisely at 90 degrees as specified in the recipe.

Francois, when you suggest that I verify temperature and then change the rennet from there, can you elaborate.

Sailor, the recipe (from Ricki Carroll) calls for 1/2 tsp of rennet and 2 gallons of milk. I use 3 gallons of milk so consequently have increased my rennet to 3/4 tsp. When I decided to increase my quantity of milk, I emailed Ricki Carrol's organization and was told to increase other ingredients proportionately. Am I using too much rennet. In fact, I would expand that question include the other ingredients. Should I also use 1 1/2  paks of starter instead of 1 pak that the 2 milk recipe calls for? Should I also be increasing my calcium chloride proportionately?

Thanks for your input.

Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 06:34:43 PM »
I mean that all parameters are interdependent.  If you change one (like set temp) you then need to adjust the others (amount of CaCl, rennet and cut time) to find the optimum result.  Change any one of these parameters and the others need to be adjusted to compensate. 

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 07:04:32 PM »
I use 3/4 tsp rennet for a 4 gallon batch. Usually gives a 12-13 minute floc time.

My bottles of rennet from Glengarry (Danisco) and Hoeggar both say 3/4 tsp for 15 liters (close to 4 gallons).

Francois is absolutely right (of course :o). Temp, milk quality, etc. all effect curd set. That's why it's really important to use floc point instead of just time. Assume that your floc time is 8 and mine is 13. If we both just use 45 minutes from a recipe then our finished results will be quite different. However, using a floc multiplier of 3, you would set for 24 minutes. Mine would set for 36. And we would get the same results.
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Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 07:33:56 AM »
Measure your floc time (should be 10-14 minutes) and multiply by 3 for gouda.  This time is the total time from rennet addition to cut.  I would add CaCl to make sure you get a good hard set.  the floc multiplier can be adjusted either way based on the first batch, but I normally start with 3 for a first batch and go from there.  For raw milk my multipliers vary seasonally from 5 in the winter to 1.5 in the summer for hard cheese.

I realize this is a very old thread, but it did raise some questions for me.

I use raw goat milk.  Do I still need to add CaCl?  I thought that was only for pasteurized milk.

Also, does flocculation time vary with goat milk compared to cow milk?  Or perhaps the question really is, does the amount of rennet vary between cow milk and goat milk?
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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 10:13:02 AM »
Quote
I use raw goat milk.  Do I still need to add CaCl?  I thought that was only for pasteurized milk.
You can use it for all milk where you want to strengthen the strength of the set. Sometimes, raw milk needs it, like for winter milk.
Quote
Also, does flocculation time vary with goat milk compared to cow milk?  Or perhaps the question really is, does the amount of rennet vary between cow milk and goat milk?
It varies not only with the species, but also with the breed and the time of year. You adjust rennet amount also with the type of cheese to coincide with the level of calcium retention you want to achieve in combination with the rate of acid development. What I'm trying to say is that you start with a general amount of 7-9 ml single strength per 100 lbs of milk, and then adjust so you achieve a flocculation time of 10-15 mins. We had a long discussion about this about 3 weeks ago.
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Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 11:07:06 AM »
Quote
We had a long discussion about this about 3 weeks ago

Thank you. 

Can you direct me to that discussion?

Today I decided to make Monterey Jack.  Recipe calls for clean break at 40 minutes.  Flocculation took 5-1/2 minutes.  Whew!  Much too fast, right?  For Jack cheese I'm assuming a factor of 3, like Colby (I couldn't find reference to Jack).  Would that be correct?

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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2011, 11:28:29 AM »
It was Steff's thread
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html

5.5 mins is fast. Should be 10-12.

factor of 3-3.5 for jack.
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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 11:41:56 AM »
Next time I'll cut back on the rennet.  I used vegetable double strength--I never know whether it really is double strength, but perhaps it is.
Joy