Author Topic: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?  (Read 4236 times)

Offline Boofer

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2011, 08:25:00 AM »
It was Steff's thread
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html

5.5 mins is fast. Should be 10-12.

factor of 3-3.5 for jack.
Just for clarification...what is the impact of a fast floc? I've been using dry calf rennet and have experienced a few (1/8 - 1/16 tsp in 4 gallons) in the 5-8 minute range.

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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2011, 08:34:28 AM »
Boof - I find powdered rennet difficult to work with because of inconsistencies in dry measurement. With small batches of milk, even a few drops can make a big difference in floc time.

A fast floc will age faster, but also has tendencies towards bitter flavors.
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2011, 08:45:41 AM »
Thanks for your quick response, Sailor.

I've been using the dry rennet because I don't make cheese on a regular basis like you and your creamery.

Would it be beneficial to get a gram scale and measure my dry matter that way? Seems like that would reduce or eliminate differences in measurement.

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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2011, 08:59:05 AM »
In terms of the physical properties, it's also complex. Thing about curd as a special kind of solid, whose properties such as friability and water retention vary with the properties of the milk, and the rate of change of these properties also varies with the amount of enzyme present.

If you load it up with enzyme, you will get very solid curd very fast. It will require you to accelerate everything, and adjust your make parameters so that your final moisture is still the same as adding less enzyme, and coincides with the right rate of acid development, and right rate of water loss from the curd (matched to curd size, agitation, and temp).

If you have a fast floc, you need to adjust everything else to happen faster. And it's not a linear adjustments, it's multivariable. That's why you want a relatively slow floc, because it's more flexible and accommodates humans. Robots or automated processing lines could accomplish the same end outcome much faster.

Also, there is the bitterness issue, but there are ways around it (heat, enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis, etc)
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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2011, 09:02:08 AM »
Quote
enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis

Curious on this, Pav.  Which enzymes are fairly specific for these peptides?
- Paul


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 09:13:51 AM »
Which peptides?  8)  :P
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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 09:15:43 AM »
Quote from: Pav
enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis

Which enzyme or enzymes are you referring to?
- Paul

Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2011, 11:54:20 AM »
If you have a fast floc, you need to adjust everything else to happen faster. And it's not a linear adjustments, it's multivariable. That's why you want a relatively slow floc, because it's more flexible and accommodates humans. Robots or automated processing lines could accomplish the same end outcome much faster.

Also, there is the bitterness issue, but there are ways around it (heat, enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis, etc)

Adjust everything as in curd cooking time and aging?  Does it acidify more quickly as well?

And uh...would you please explain "enzyme crafting" and  "hydrophobic terminal cataboysis"?  I've been pretty much a seat-of-the-pants cheesemaker until lately, when I tried a couple of my cheeses that were wonderful--and couldn't remember how I made them, even what recipe I used.  That convinced me that I need to get a bit more organized.

Joy

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2011, 12:27:03 PM »
Quote
Adjust everything as in curd cooking time and aging?  Does it acidify more quickly as well?
Has nothing to do with acidity rate, that's starter.
Quote
And uh...would you please explain "enzyme crafting" and  "hydrophobic terminal cataboysis"?
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM), it takes too long to type. Lots more you can learn before you get into that level of specificity.
Quote
  I've been pretty much a seat-of-the-pants cheesemaker until lately, when I tried a couple of my cheeses that were wonderful--and couldn't remember how I made them, even what recipe I used.  That convinced me that I need to get a bit more organized.
There's lot you can do to systematize things before you need to understand how enzymes interact with peptides.
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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2011, 12:54:14 PM »
Quote from: The Turophilic Hookup
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM)..


Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.
- Paul


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Offline rosawoodsii

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2011, 09:18:10 PM »
Quote from: The Turophilic Hookup
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM)..


Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.

 ;D  But a cheesemaking beats any other kind of addiction hands down!
Joy

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2011, 09:01:17 AM »
Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.
Pure poetry. Thanks, Paul, for starting my day with a smile  :) .

I just get the resigned look from my wife and maybe an utterance like "Eh, oh you're doing cheese."

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Offline george (MaryJ)

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2011, 09:09:47 AM »
BWAH!!  I had to make a deal with my sister - if she tells me a chicken story, I get to tell her a cheese story.   ;D
If I have to be a grownup, can I at least be telekinetic too?

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2011, 01:41:25 PM »
I'm glad at least we all understand each other...sniff, sniff. ;D
- Paul

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Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 08:23:15 PM »
Hot damn I'm lucky.  My wife orgainises the weekend so I get at least one day to cheese. She loves me and my crazy obsessions. :P
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