Gouda made on 12-18-2009

[wharris]

Nicely done Dave.

I Will make this my next cheese based on this.

[Likesspace]

Gurkan, Tea and Wayne.....thanks for the posts.
It really does feel nice when something goes as planned. Especially so when you've put in the time and effort to make it so.
I will say this......
I did put some time in on building this recipe but without the good and knowledgeable people on this forum I would still be turning out the same old bitter and crumbly cheese I have in the past.
The success that is shown on this forum constantly challenges me to do better in my own cheese making and the great thing is that the members also are willing to share their experiences and their knowledge.
In short, I think this is by far the best cheese making resource available.
Oh, and Wayne......
I really hope that it works out for you. Now that you are doing those monster batches of cheese, it makes me a little nervous that you will be trying a recipe that I posted. 
GOOD LUCK!

Dave

[FarmerJd]

Well done Dave!

[Likesspace]

Thanks Jd!
Today I made another batch of this cheese and FINALLY hit my final Ph marker (at end of press) on the money. This sort of surprised me since I was getting some pretty rapid Ph drop early on.
Instead of using only a 1/4 tsp. MM100 culture I also added an 1/8 tsp. of Flora Danica to the mix. I did this because Debi said that she really liked the flavor it added and because Wayne said he uses straight Flora Danica when making Gouda.
When I checked for Ph drop after adding culture I had already gone from 6.66 (new milk) to 6.48. At this point I was certain that the addition of Flora Danica was going to make me miss my drain marker.
I added my rennet right away, cut in 27 minutes, (using spinning bowl method), and proceeded from there.
At washing I was right on the money and as I said before also came out perfectly on my final press Ph.
All in all it was an interesting experiment and according to final flavor I will probably do this again on future batches.
What amazes me about this cheese is that during the press the cheese actually has the feel and appearance of bread dough. When turning I leave some pretty deep fingerprints in the wheel.
I've never seen this on any other cheese but it lets me know that things are going right with this one.
All in all this is a fun cheese to make and the time period to make is short enough that there is plenty of time to do other things on the same day.

Dave

[DeejayDebi]

Bread dough is a good description. I think this is what I called a soft natural sponge feeling on my last cheese. Really feels weird to me, but I have several cheeses that do that.

[Zinger]

I find the bread dough example as a good description of my gouda experience as well. This is also true of my first colby which I just made. I guess that makes sense, since they are both washed curd cheeses. I hope this is the appropriate result.

[DeejayDebi]

It has always worked for me Zinger even if it does seem strange. Kind of like those commercials for memory foam beds huh?

[judec]

Hi,
Can you guys please tell me if you use raw or store milk?  Do you add the cal. chloride to raw milk?  I am also trying to perfect gouda as it is usually crumbly/slightly bitter.  Only once have I made a really yummy "bought" type gouda.  I am off to buy a ph meter to try your recipe Dave, hopefully it will result in more standard cheese.

Jude.

[humble_servant7]

Three Questions

Add MM100 culture and float for 2 minutes
Stir in culture using 25 up and down strokes
Allow milk to ripen for 5 minutes
Add Calcium Chloride
5 minutes later add Rennet and stir for 1 minute
Check for flocculation and use multiplier of 3 to determine time to cut
Check for clean break and cut to 3/8”
Heal curd for 5 minutes

1. What does "check for flocculation and use multiplier of 3 to determine cut" mean?
I'm lost.

2. So you only check for pH AFTER cutting the curd?
I thought you were supposed to check for pH at different various times of cooking, like for instance after adding the rennet to ascertain if the milk has acidified enough and then after the bacteria to ascertain when the cheese is ready to be cut, etc. so on and so forth.

3. In trying to decide what type of curd knife I want to buy from Cartierrusm, I couldnt help but notice that your recipe calls for a 3/8" one, when all the ones I've ever heard of are either 1/4" or 1/2".
So can you tell me the effect it would make on one's cheese if one was to cut with a 1/2 inch or 1/4 inch knife as opposed to a 3/8 inch one?

Because according to Cartier in his own words:
" even though most reciepes will call for 3/8" it's not necessary. When you understand cheese making you'll see what I mean. It's more of the technique of cheese making than curd size."

[DeejayDebi]

Judec - Dave was using store bought milk - hence the Calcium chloride.

Three Questions


1. What does "check for flocculation and use multiplier of 3 to determine cut" mean?
I'm lost.


To keep it simple - Flocculation is the separation of a solution. In our case we are separating the curds from the whey.

The simplest way to see this and find the flocculation point (begining) is to note the time you added your rennet and set a light weight bowl on top of the milk and spin it. Do this until the bowl no longer wants to spin. The amount of time it takes for the milk to thicken sufficently to stop the bowl from spining is the flocculation point. This time is then multiplied by the multipler in this case 3 to give you the total amount of time it should take before you cut your curds. Let's say fr example the bowl stops spinning in 7 minutes, multiply the 7 minutes times the multipler of 3 to get a total time before cutting the curds of 21 minutes.

Different style of cheese have different amounts of time for the curds firm to the right consistancy. There are predetermined multiplers used as a guide to predict when this will happen so the curds can be cut at the right time. In the case of Gouda the mutipler is 3.


2. So you only check for pH AFTER cutting the curd?
I thought you were supposed to check for pH at different various times of cooking, like for instance after adding the rennet to ascertain if the milk has acidified enough and then after the bacteria to ascertain when the cheese is ready to be cut, etc. so on and so forth.

For the home cheesemaker it is generally only done after you cut the curds. Checking the pH of the milk could be done if you needs to change the acidty of the milk because it was sour or gassey or something but that is generally beyond the scope of a home cheesemaker. So the first of several pH checks is after cutting.

There are several point that the pH can be checked, after cutting, heating, washing etc depending on the style of cheese.

3. In trying to decide what type of curd knife I want to buy from Cartierrusm, I couldnt help but notice that your recipe calls for a 3/8" one, when all the ones I've ever heard of are either 1/4" or 1/2".
So can you tell me the effect it would make on one's cheese if one was to cut with a 1/2 inch or 1/4 inch knife as opposed to a 3/8 inch one?

Smaller curds make drier cheese, bigger curds make moister cheese. The size is based on the type of cheese. That being said. Curds are initally cut to a given sized but during cooking are often cut smaller by stirring. If one set of knives are all you plan to buy I would get larger ones say 1/2 inch. You can cut twice to make smaller curds but you can't glue curds back together again.

Because according to Cartier in his own words:
" even though most reciepes will call for 3/8" it's not necessary. When you understand cheese making you'll see what I mean. It's more of the technique of cheese making than curd size."

[humble_servant7]

GREAT responses!

To keep it simple - Flocculation is the separation of a solution. In our case we are separating the curds from the whey.

The simplest way to see this and find the flocculation point (begining) is to note the time you added your rennet and set a light weight bowl on top of the milk and spin it. Do this until the bowl no longer wants to spin. The amount of time it takes for the milk to thicken sufficently to stop the bowl from spining is the flocculation point. This time is then multiplied by the multipler in this case 3 to give you the total amount of time it should take before you cut your curds. Let's say fr example the bowl stops spinning in 7 minutes, multiply the 7 minutes times the multipler of 3 to get a total time before cutting the curds of 21 minutes.

Different style of cheese have different amounts of time for the curds firm to the right consistancy. There are predetermined multiplers used as a guide to predict when this will happen so the curds can be cut at the right time. In the case of Gouda the mutipler is 3.

Hmmm... sounds rather unreliable...

Is there any other way of doing this. Like with a gadget of sorts or something?

I like to make sure I am GUARANTEED to have an excellent end product and rater would rely on science and scientific instruments to properly give me the accurate measurements.

Anything you can recommend?

For the home cheesemaker it is generally only done after you cut the curds. Checking the pH of the milk could be done if you needs to change the acidty of the milk because it was sour or gassey or something but that is generally beyond the scope of a home cheesemaker. So the first of several pH checks is after cutting.

There are several point that the pH can be checked, after cutting, heating, washing etc depending on the style of cheese.

Wow. Never knew that. So I guess you cant measure the acidity of the cheese directly after you add rennet, and then when approaching the target pH, then add the culture, and then check the pH again to then decide the oppurtune moment of when to cut the curd?

I mean-- this way it sounds much easier, much more scientific, with the home-maker guaranteed for an excellent product.

Smaller curds make drier cheese, bigger curds make moister cheese. The size is based on the type of cheese. That being said. Curds are initally cut to a given sized but during cooking are often cut smaller by stirring. If one set of knives are all you plan to buy I would get larger ones say 1/2 inch. You can cut twice to make smaller curds but you can't glue curds back together again.

Okay, thanks.

Would cutting the curd with a 1/4" as opposed to a 3/8" severely effect the cheese in any way shape or form?

[linuxboy]

Hmmm... sounds rather unreliable...

Is there any other way of doing this. Like with a gadget of sorts or something?

I like to make sure I am GUARANTEED to have an excellent end product and rater would rely on science and scientific instruments to properly give me the accurate measurements.

Anything you can recommend?

Why does it sound unreliable? Because it requires a subjective evaluation for when the bowl stops spinning? Don't mean to give a lecture here, but relying on only measurements for when to transition among steps in the cheesemake doesn't work so well for small and mid size producers. You'd need to control every single aspect if you want to do that, and measure milk fat, solids, solids not fat, mineral, total acidity, titratable lactic acid, concentration of alpha, beta, and kappa caseins, etc.

With that in mind, if you really want, there are two more ways to measure a flocculation equivalence. One is by using a refractometer to measure light refraction and the other by using a torque meter that spins inside of the curd to measure colloidal resistance. But the results are within an acceptable margin of error when using the spinning bowl method.

Another way to measure flocculation is to take a curd shovel of spatula and lift the milk up to see if any floccules remain on the surface of the shovel or spatula.

Not many things are guaranteed in cheesemaking, even if you micromanage every detail. You'd drive yourself crazy... there are hundreds of thousands complex interactions... the multivariable analysis would be insanely challenging.

Wow. Never knew that. So I guess you cant measure the acidity of the cheese directly after you add rennet, and then when approaching the target pH, then add the culture, and then check the pH again to then decide the oppurtune moment of when to cut the curd?

I mean-- this way it sounds much easier, much more scientific, with the home-maker guaranteed for an excellent product.

You should cut the curd based on flocculation time, not a pH change. The pH change for curd cutting is somewhat irrelevant in terms of getting the curds to the right moisture level after cooking. The reason pH is not reliable is because during the first hour of the cheesemake, unless you're using some ultra fast acidifying culture or too much culture, there is both a lag period, and a slow acidification period. The lag period is due to how bacteria function and the slow acidification period has to do with metabolysis/colony sizes and that milk buffers acids and absorbs acid production.

One can measure the acidity after adding rennet. Not sure what you mean.

Would cutting the curd with a 1/4" as opposed to a 3/8" severely effect the cheese in any way shape or form?

Yes, you will get a drier cheese (possibly) and lower yield. Also the cook time is reduced.

[humble_servant7]

Why does it sound unreliable? Because it requires a subjective evaluation for when the bowl stops spinning? Don't mean to give a lecture here, but relying on only measurements for when to transition among steps in the cheesemake doesn't work so well for small and mid size producers. You'd need to control every single aspect if you want to do that, and measure milk fat, solids, solids not fat, mineral, total acidity, titratable lactic acid, concentration of alpha, beta, and kappa caseins, etc.

With that in mind, if you really want, there are two more ways to measure a flocculation equivalence. One is by using a refractometer to measure light refraction and the other by using a torque meter that spins inside of the curd to measure colloidal resistance. But the results are within an acceptable margin of error when using the spinning bowl method.

Another way to measure flocculation is to take a curd shovel of spatula and lift the milk up to see if any floccules remain on the surface of the shovel or spatula.

Not many things are guaranteed in cheesemaking, even if you micromanage every detail. You'd drive yourself crazy... there are hundreds of thousands complex interactions... the multivariable analysis would be insanely challenging.


You should cut the curd based on flocculation time, not a pH change. The pH change for curd cutting is somewhat irrelevant in terms of getting the curds to the right moisture level after cooking. The reason pH is not reliable is because during the first hour of the cheesemake, unless you're using some ultra fast acidifying culture or too much culture, there is both a lag period, and a slow acidification period. The lag period is due to how bacteria function and the slow acidification period has to do with metabolysis/colony sizes and that milk buffers acids and absorbs acid production.

One can measure the acidity after adding rennet. Not sure what you mean.

Yes, you will get a drier cheese (possibly) and lower yield. Also the cook time is reduced.

Oh Okay. Wow.

Thanks for the response. I have much to think about now.

1. Linuxboy besides the 1/2" knife that debi and cartier mentioned, which other sizes would you also recommend to satisfy the prerequisites for being able to make MOST of the cheeses?

2. And is the "spinning bowl" method the one you mostly use?

3. And Debi mentioned something about there being "certain points" during one's making of cheese that one should measure pH at.
Do you mind telling me those points?

I get confused as to which point the measurement of pH should be taken.

[linuxboy]

1. Linuxboy besides the 1/2" knife that debi and cartier mentioned, which other sizes would you also recommend to satisfy the prerequisites for being able to make MOST of the cheeses?

You can make most continental (aka hard cheeses) styles with a 1/2". For alpine and parmesan styles, you can use the 1/2" twice, like Debi posted, to get small rice-size 1/4" pieces.

For cheeses with higher flocculation multipliers (ones with more moisture), such as feta, bloomy rind, blues, etc, you need to either scoop with a ladle or cut to very large pieces, 1"+. But not always, just in general the way you get more moisture is higher floc multiplier and larger curd size.

2. And is the "spinning bowl" method the one you mostly use?

My milk has a consistent floc time of 9-12 mins, unless I make a special low-rennet cheese, so I can visually tell the gel point. The light bounces off differently at the floc point. I also float a bowl as a secondary confirmation, or if I'm doing other things and not watching the milk all the time.

3. And Debi mentioned something about there being "certain points" during one's making of cheese that one should measure pH at.
Do you mind telling me those points?

I get confused as to which point the measurement of pH should be taken.

The key pH points are:

• before adding culture: record starting pH of the milk
  
• With DVI culture, 20-30 mins after adding culture: record pH and look for a drop of about .1. That's how you know the cultures are awake. This one is not as crucial because if you're using fresh culture, it should be good.
  
• At whey drain. The whey drain pH, more than any other, determines the character of the cheese
  
• After press or molding. This is to determine when to add salt or to take out of the mold and brine
  
• After salting. Not so crucial because there's not much you can do to change pH now, but do it as a quality control point and also to help you develop consistency. If a cheese comes out perfectly, you can look back at the numbers and try to replicate it.

[Alex]

I get 16-18 minutes flocculation time using raw milk and buttermilk as starter culture. Is that considered logical?