Author Topic: Pressing Weight/Pressure -Gouda & Others  (Read 20238 times)

cath s

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 03:45:09 AM »
cheers....
so height has nothing to do with it?

thks for taking the time to help me out....

wharris

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 04:01:51 AM »
I think height (depth of curd) does play a part.  I as writing a response, but then I realized I've posted on this topic in the past.
I did a little search.  Here

FarmerJd

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 04:44:59 AM »
I was referring to the psi calculation when I said height has nothing to do with it. There is no variable in figuring psi that is influenced by the height of the column. This is not the same as saying it doesn't affect the cheese. It may or may not. My education leads me to say it doesn't. My experience leads me to say my education is incomplete. ;)  In any case I am quite sure the difference would be insignificant to the quality of the cheese as long as you flipped the cheese with each weight change.

cath s

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 10:51:48 AM »
cheers wayne and FarmerJD...

Its interesting isnt it......

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 04:49:22 PM »
Commercial producers often stack hoops (vertically or horizontally) so they can press more than one cheese at a time. The PSI used remains constant regardless of how many hoops are being pressed. So, obviously height has little or no effect.

wharris

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 05:02:48 PM »
Well, i'm not sure. 
The big operations use a vacuum in conjuntion with the tall cheddar towers.
The smaller commercial operations use smaller containers that require flipping.


I just can't help but beleive that really deep curds push back a bit, and that the depth of the curd plays some role.

I could be wrong, but i need just ponder that for a while.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 06:29:23 PM by Wayne Harris »

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 06:37:08 PM »
I can agree that in a horizontal press the weight of the stacked cheeses would mater "as much" but in a vertical tower the weight of all those cheeses has to be considered in the final calculations. They always have the same amount of wheels so they wouldn't have to change it.

cath s

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 06:58:09 PM »
certainly - I would have thought the higher your cheese, measureably more pressure is being placed at the bottom of 'stack',  whereas the top would be receiving less. 

The same would apply to any height but say on a horizontal stack the diff is too small to measure, but vertical would increase as the height increases.....

maybe not???
something to ponder...
I never see 'artisan' cheese being made that has any height to it, they all appear to be around a certain 'dimension' regardless of size/weight of the cheese.

FRANCOIS

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 07:14:02 PM »
In a vertical stack the stiffness of the cheese sort of matters.  It depends on how you look at it.  The pressure (psi) remains constant.  The air ram adjusts the pressure in the cylinder to correspond to the pre-set pressure.   The more curd in the stack, the more push back and the ram adjusts. 

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 09:56:51 PM »
PSI is constant. Weight is not. ::) 

Imagine filling the bottom half of a hoop with cream cheese and the top half with cheddar curds. Now press with 10 PSI. As the pressure travels down the column from the top to the bottom everything will eventually reach equilibrium and be at the SAME PRESSURE. The cream cheese will compress faster because it is softer but everything will be pressed to a consistent density. Anything that can't be compressed will be expelled like excess whey. Because the cheddar curds are much more dense to start with, they will be simply be pushed into the softer cream cheese and everything will try to meld together. If you started with 1/2 Gouda and 1/2 Cheddar, then the blending of the 2 curd types won't be as distinct.

Consider the tires on your car. You don't put 4 gallons of air in the tire, you use a gauge to measure the pressure at 32 psi (or whatever). This PSI is a constant even though cars are different sizes and different weights. A larger , heavier car will use less VOLUMN of air to achieve the same PSI.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 10:10:01 PM by Sailor Con Queso »

FarmerJd

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2010, 10:33:16 PM »
Do I dare continue this thread?  :-\  Sailor, you know I agree with you but I must play devil's advocate. This is not air in the column or even a liquid. It is a somewhere between a solid and a liquid and it becomes more of a solid with time. This makes no difference if this were an open system (meaning no walls on the sides but the solid kept its shape) However, with a semi- solid, it is possible that in a closed container the interaction between the walls and the solid can actually prevent the force from being transfered through out the mass. If I were in a tube and my kids were under me with a weight on my head I could keep some of the weight off them by transferring it to the walls with my hands friction. (That is perhaps the lamest example I have ever given but oh well) With curds in a deep hoop either vertical or horizontal there can't be perfectly even distribution of the pressure because of this. If it was a liquid or gas, then it would be possible; that is how hydraulics work. The pressure is evenly distributed throughout the system. i don't think one can say the same for cheese curds. Again this is really a moot discussion because nobody is measuring pressure to the nearest tenth.


As far as the deeper curds pushing back more, they can only do so if they are braced against something else. Eventually the only "something else" is the bottom. (Unless they can put their hands on the sides. ;) )

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2010, 11:23:58 PM »
Yes. In a "closed" container, liquids and semi-solids would not be compressed equally. HOWEVER - :o We don't use closed containers. All those tiny little holes in both the cheesecloth and the hoop make this a self-bleeding hydraulic cylinder. Anything that can't be compressed escapes thru the holes. Everything remaining will TRY to reach an equilibrium pressure. Yes there are forces of friction with multiple calculations that are way over my head. But, that's why we flip our cheeses - to help equalize pressure even better.

As Francois said, they use a constant PSI, even with vertical stacks. So from a practical standpoint a Gouda pressed at 4 PSI is the same for a 6" hoop or a commercial stack. PSI is the constant link.

Cheese Head

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2010, 11:32:26 PM »
Cath, there's several discussions on amount of pressing weight in several threads in this board including issues about height, mold type (escape route for whey), and acidity of curds.

On pressing weight for Gouda, I did some research here, also the Salmon Arm Canada cheese maker video is useful to get an idea, they press for up to 2.5 hours only and when pressing their biggest 4 kg wheels.

Also, I believe member Debi also presses lighter than 4 psi as I do, I remember here pictures with large cans as weights for here 7" diameter wheels.

Have fun!

FRANCOIS

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2010, 12:11:44 AM »
Pressure distribution is not uniform, that's why we flip the hoops, for even pressing.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Gouda Pressing Weights
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2010, 12:17:19 AM »
I see what you are saying Sailor the PSI on the cheese remains constant - I agree with that. THey will stive to achieve the same press regardles of the  mechanics involved.

What I was thinking is the pressure required on the ram to get that same PSI will change based on the posiition and numbers of cheeses in the device.