Propagating - Freeze Dried Starter Cultures / Using Store Bought White Mold Cheese As Innoculatant

[JulzKiwi]

If you can make yoghurt using yoghurt with live cultures as a starter, can you do the same with making camembert cheese by using some of the creamy cheese center as the culture and mould instead of the powdered starters???  The starters are too expensive to buy in NZ.

[FRANCOIS]

I have heard of people doing this, some with alleged success, but I suspect any acidification they had was from indiginous culture.  Starters die off very quickly in cheese after make and while there may be minor residuals I wouldn't count on them for consistent product.

Have you considered mother culture?  You can use one sachet and just propogate forward, or even freeze ice cubes of mother culture for months.  It's how people at home do it economically in the US.

[linuxboy]

It's difficult at home to isolate lactic bacteria from cheese and then propagate it without contamination. It's possible, but too much work. An easier way is to do what Francois suggested. Buy one packet and use it to seed a mother culture. Every so often, if the mother culture becomes contaminated, make a fresh batch.

As for the white mold, that's easier. You can take a piece of the rind from a camembert, and put it on top of the young camembert to inoculate it. The mold will transfer and start to grow.

You can also grind the rind and add it to the milk, but if you do that, you may introduce contaminants.

[JulzKiwi]

Those are both interestingpoints.  I have only just read these after gleefully scraping the mould that had grown on the sides of the pot to save in the freezer.  I will look around the website for info on propogating a mother culture.  Cheers!  (Or should it be "Cheese")

[Minamyna]

I have heard of people doing this, some with alleged success, but I suspect any acidification they had was from indiginous culture.  Starters die off very quickly in cheese after make and while there may be minor residuals I wouldn't count on them for consistent product.

Have you considered mother culture?  You can use one sachet and just propogate forward, or even freeze ice cubes of mother culture for months.  It's how people at home do it economically in the US.

Can you do this will all starter cultures, even direct set types?

[linuxboy]

Yes, but only if they are single strain cultures, or ones that are undefined, multi-species culture. So you couldn't simply propogate MM4000 series from Danisco, for example, but you could propagate Abiasa's meso B.

If they are multiple-strain cultures and you propagate them forward, the concentration of the respective blends will change if you just use broth or 11% (or less) skim milk. Also, you need to propagate correctly. Meaning not only watching your aseptic technique, but also acidity and temp. High acid will damage bacteria, and that acid level is different for each strain. I have posted about this before in one of the threads I linked to in your other thread.

If you want to duplicate a culture that's multi-strain and not stable, you will need to first isolate the strains, reculture each individually, and then combine starters into your milk if using bulk starter or lyophize them and blend. Of course, there are legal considerations when doing this commercially, such as patent infringement, etc.

The difference between abiasa's meso B and something like MM4000 is that abiasa's B is cultures with all the strains in the tank already, and it is a culture that has achieved relative balance over time, sort of like sourdough blends achieve balance. So you can keep propagating forward. Mixed strain cultures and blended after the fact according to proprietary formulas, and lyophilized, so of course if you want to recreate that, you have to repeat what the manufacturer did.

The rest of the threads I linked have lots more answers

edit: if you don't care abotu exactness and consistency, you can use the skim milk method and propagate anything forward. Also, a first-maybe-second gen propagation even from specific strain DVI mixes should be OK.

[Minamyna]

Wow! this sounds very exciting!!! I am going to have to read that several times over again, how do you culture the individual strains out a batch of mixed cultures?

I missed the links, am I brain dead?

Thank you so much!

[linuxboy]

In your other thread that you posted http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html

Individual strain isolation is just classic pure culture technique. Petri dish used as a streak plate, wire loop, streak on agar, incubate, wait, repeat until you get consistent blooms of what look like single strains, confirm microscopically and/or DNA sequencing, grab that single strain and propagate in broth, test broth for contaminants, if none, get aliquots and put into deep freeze. Just standard technique, nothing special.

[Minamyna]

using lb plates? I will go check my other thread. Thanks for the response!

[linuxboy]

MRS is usually the one for lactobacilli. But try it and see if that's all you have on hand.

edit: on second thought, you really need a carb source in there. LB doesn't have dextrose, just the classic carbon, nitrogen, and vitamin mix in the form of tryptone and yeast extract. MRS is better, has dextrose, buffer, inhibitory acetate, citrate salt, etc.

[ArnaudForestier]

As for the white mold, that's easier. You can take a piece of the rind from a camembert, and put it on top of the young camembert to inoculate it. The mold will transfer and start to grow.

You can also grind the rind and add it to the milk, but if you do that, you may introduce contaminants.

Old post, sorry for revivifying, but this was something I was concerned about when thinking of the rind puree idea, Linux, as I couldn't think of an easy way to do this aseptically.  On a cam thread, I believe I saw someone discussing just dropping a piece of rind in whole into the ripening milk, then removing it - avoids the issue of nasty nooks and crannies for beasties to take hold (via whatever machine or screen(?) is used to puree the rind), but still suppose you risk contamination with anything other than a pure culture, however obtained, so it would be a matter of doing one's level best to minimize risk. 

Any thoughts on how easily your idea of simply dropping a piece of rind on a maturing cheese works, across different cheese types - e.g., an easier/quicker transfer on softer cheeses (presuming "quicker" means the desired flora has a chance to take hold, before unwanted beasties).

[linuxboy]

Do it as near aseptically as you can

Milk doesn't need to be sterile, it's more about managing the environment to coax the molds and bacteria to grow.

For direct rind transfer, I was referring to camembert, to P candidum. You can also do it with smear cheeses that have b linens. But for other cheese rind and types, it's not easy and you usually can't get a bloom by smearing... need to puree.

[ArnaudForestier]

Do it as near aseptically as you can

Milk doesn't need to be sterile, it's more about managing the environment to coax the molds and bacteria to grow.

For direct rind transfer, I was referring to camembert, to P candidum. You can also do it with smear cheeses that have b linens. But for other cheese rind and types, it's not easy and you usually can't get a bloom by smearing... need to puree.

Thanks Linux, on the direct rind transfer, that was my suspicion, makes sense. 

On the "setting up the environment" thing, as opposed to completely aseptic technique, I think the closed-system, 18 HAACP point Goose Island Brewery thing still has its polar draw, over good old Neil, of Titanic Brewing (would be a shame to think they've gone to lab coats and sterile streaking, over open buckets of pitched yeasts ).  Will dive in.  And hopefully live to write about it.

[linuxboy]

Funny thing is, for a new cave or reefer, having exact controls over temp and humidity are the tools that enable you to coax out the rind elements. Meaning make sterile (or as close as possible), and then seed with what you want, and then regulate to build up native populations on the surfaces and in the air.

It works for old-timers precisely because they've been doing it for years. And for people who want to replicate it naturally in the same way without going the scientific route... do you have ten years to spend trying?

[ArnaudForestier]

Funny thing is, for a new cave or reefer, having exact controls over temp and humidity are the tools that enable you to coax out the rind elements. Meaning make sterile (or as close as possible), and then seed with what you want, and then regulate to build up native populations on the surfaces and in the air.

It works for old-timers precisely because they've been doing it for years. And for people who want to replicate it naturally in the same way without going the scientific route... do you have ten years to spend trying?

Funny you say this - I was thinking on this very thing this morning, thinking on the wonderful scene from the Cheese Nun where she goes to the producer's cave, which has had 200 years of work behind it.  I think all the time, now, on setting up an under-earth cave, and doing just this - though don't have the 200 years to wait.  Though I'm trying.