Author Topic: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?  (Read 2416 times)

Offline Lennie

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pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« on: February 01, 2010, 06:12:55 PM »
Trying Carroll's recipe for this cheese tonight, using thermophilic DS (C201) and propionic shermanii C6 in storebought milk.

I see the final pH is supposed to be 5.2-5.4, any tips on pH the milk should be when I add rennet, and when I should drain the curds?

Also, I am using Albiasa propionic shermanii and the package says use at 1/8tsp per gal, whereas both recipes I'ev seen call for 1tsp.  Which should I do?     
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:19:07 PM by Lennie »


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 06:21:28 PM »
See http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2200.msg22045.html#msg22045

Fast cook, small curd size, and whey drain pH above 6.3 are crucial for emmenthaler. Add rennet at 6.5.

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Offline linuxboy

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 06:24:51 PM »
Really? Ricci says to use 1 tsp per gallon? That's nuts.... even 1/8 tsp per gallon is too much.

I use 1/8 tsp per 4 gallon batch when making a small batch in a pot. But, I do age the wheels hot for eye formation, about 70-72 F.
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Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 06:31:38 PM »
Carroll and Tim Smith's recipe both call for 1tsp.  So in my haste and not knowing if anyone was online this evening, I added a scant tsp.  What is this going to do?  Maybe I can age cooler for eye formation?

Anyway, thanks for the quick replies.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 07:54:39 PM »
Nope, age at the same temp... maybe a touch lower, say 65. It will make more holes with more culture. If you age cooler, you will have a lot of very small holes.

You will have to do careful rind control, with that much culture, the Co2 production will be really high and can blow out the cheese.
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Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 08:36:04 PM »
Where do I find out about rind control?

The curds are looking good at 120F, they are very small.  They look like a small curd cottage cheese.  Minimal problems with matting, I have to stir frequently.  So far, so good.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 08:54:09 PM »
In the thread I linked above. I posted about key aspects important for emmenthaler styles, and Sailor also posted detailed make notes. Gist of it is you want a rind flexible enough so it bends, yet hard enough that it doesn't les gas through. It's an art to get it just right.
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Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 09:38:51 PM »
Gotcha, I've been reviewing that thread, and the one where his cheese blew.  Yikes!  I may resort to vacuum packaging this cheese at some point.  Its going to be fun to watch a cheese swell up.

I think I got it about right as far as the curds are concerned.  I'm pressing now, its holding together and looking pretty.

The whey is heated and acidified too, in the morning I'll strain out my ricotta.  I've yet to waste any whey.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 09:48:42 PM by Lennie »

Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 09:46:10 PM »
I'll probably go ahead and brine for more like 12 hours, inhibiting the propionic bacteria a bit might not be such a bad idea.  I'm pressing overnight with 20lb, I've flipped it a couple of times already and it doesn't seem to be a whole lot of pressure on the wheel.  Its in the little cheapie basket mold that came with my hard cheese kit.  With a 6" diameter, thats less than 1psi.

Should also mention that toniight I ordered the bacteria culture with the mix that gives the buttery flavor, I plan on making another of these with that culture when it comes in.  All in all this was an easy cheese to prepare so far.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 10:49:38 PM »
WOW. That's a lot of gas producing bacteria. I'm with Linuxboy - 1/8 tsp in 4 gallons is plenty. Pressing at 1 PSI is way too light. I would double that but your basket mold is not really the best choice. I would not brine for more than 6 hours. That will just make your rind harder and inflexible. Brining initially only slows down bacterial action on the rind, so brining longer is not going to help with the overdose.

Move it from the brine into a cool (50-55F), humid location for a week or 10 days. The cool temp allows the rind to form a little while stalling the Propionic growth and CO2 formation. I would normally reccommend moving it to a 68-72F room for eye formation. However, with such a huge amount of Propionic, I personally would move it to somewhere that's between 60-62F to slow down the CO2 formation. With all that gas ready to form, she is going to blow, but hopefully you can get some decent eye formation before that happens.
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Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 07:15:27 AM »
I used the basket because my hard cheese mold makes a cheese that it tall as it is wide and I was going for something aesthetically more similar to yours Sailor.  I want to find a very small springform pan to use as a hoop, I pulled out my smallest one but it was too big.

The cheese was pretty solid but I'm sure I could've squeezed more whey out with double the weight.  I have it in brine now, it'll be in at least 9 hours while I'm at work.  I'll take your advice on using the cooler temp for propionic growth and see what happens.  As usual this first time through a recipe is a learning experience.  I'm having fun and this is the most important aspect of a hobby.


Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 08:03:29 PM »
Some pics of the process.  Lt me know if you see something obviously wrong/off-spec.


Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 09:16:34 PM »
Looking pretty good so far Lennie. I'd definately try to keep them cool and moist while aging. You want the rind soft and pliable so it can stretch without blowing.

Offline Lennie

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 07:45:07 PM »
I am fermenting my cheese in the kitchen now, its been a couple of days and I think its starting to swell.  That or it is settling and getting wider than it was.  Does a cheese generally swell more on the sides than the top?

This cheese may be too moist, I only dried it a few days before moving it to room temp after reading that it should be supple in order to expand without cracking.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 12:41:41 PM by Lennie »

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: pH Markers for Emmental? And Amt of shermanii?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 03:11:27 PM »
I find all the flat edges tend to round out if that makes sense to you. The bigger the flat surfaces the more they expand or at least that appear to swell more to me. Usually I can see it more on the tops and bottoms. The side could be from the weight of the cheese flattening out too if it's really soft.