Author Topic: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter  (Read 7776 times)

humble_servant7

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Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« on: February 22, 2010, 09:58:56 PM »
I plan on buying this. What do you guys think?:

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?ProdCode=HI%2099161&id=002002

I know its costly-- mainly because of the probe that they have attached to it. According to Debi and a couple of cheesemakers at another forum-- it costs almost $150 just for the probe alone!

wharris

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 01:13:38 AM »
wow,  That is very impressive...

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 05:42:20 AM »
I have a probe with a stainless tip and ISFET chip for measurement and I'm a big fan of the probe-type food industry electrodes, although I haven't personally used the Hanna one. They're easier to clean and they don't get gummed up as much with proteins. Also the reference solution doesn't get contaminated as easily. I think it's a good unit, and should last a long time for you.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 02:37:09 AM »
The GP probes are pretty cheap and that meter has DIN connectors so Hanna must sell the GPs on there site somewhere. Yes I did pay a pretty penny for the probe alone but it is worth it because I realy like to watch my fermented/dry aged sausages.

TroyG

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 02:29:16 PM »
You can use this unit for milk, whey and the cheese once it has been pressed or do you need a different probe for each?

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 02:39:59 PM »
Troy, you can use any meter for the cheese from the milk stage all the way to customer ready. The difference is in ease of use, durability, and convenience... and longevity. For example, with a glass bulb round electrode, there all all sorts of nooks and crannies for the proteins to settle on, so your bulb may get dirty more easily than say a probe or ISFET chip probe with a tip. Similarly, the probes may differ on the type of reference solution they use (common is Ag/AgCl/KCl), and the material that the permeable membrane is made of that lets the reference solution pass through. Teflon or a composite material or an ultra high end ceramic is better than other types, for example. When electrodes fail, it is usually because the reference solution has become contaminated, or there is protein gunk covering either the bulb or the reference junction.

That's why a glass probe with a tip is a better choice; it's easier to clean. And that's why a refillable electrode is a better choice - you can usually degunk the reference junction, but it fouls up your solution, so you need to rinse and refill.

Some electrodes will use a gel KCl reference, which helps to prevent fouling, but of course once the solution is used up, unless you drill a small hole and refill it, the electrode is no good.

So to answer your question more directly, yes you can use it for anything. Remember to not store dry. Even an ISFET should be stored wet part of the time, or the saturated KCl reference will crystallize. If you do store dry, it's not the end of the world, but it takes 1-2 hours to revive the electrode. Almost any electrode can be revived. The one case where it's very unlikely is if the reference junction material is so gummed up that it's not letting ions pass through, or if the glass bulb is damaged.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:22:50 PM by linuxboy »

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 02:52:23 PM »
Heh, look at their ad

"The electrolyte used in the FC 202D electrode is free from poisonous silver chloride, which eliminates food contamination by the electrode."

Yeah, they're technically right, the electrolyte is most likely a saturated ~4 M KCl, which is just a potassium salt. But the wire is an Ag wire, and has a thin layer of AgCl on it... that's how it works, and a very tiny amount usually makes its way to the food eventually. This is not a big deal, however. And they're right, it's not the same as using a straight AgCl electrolyte, but c'mon.... "eliminate"?

Guess I'm being nitpicky this morning.

[edit] read that wrong, thought it was a KCl reference, it's actually Viscolene.

[second edit] Wait, I was right, Viscolene is just a 3.5M KCl with AgCl. So is their contention that the open free diffusion reference junction completely eliminates AgCl from coming through? It's not material, but "eliminates"?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:06:12 PM by linuxboy »

TroyG

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 03:21:43 PM »
 ;D All about how you spine it right? LOL

I have decided PH meters make my head hurt. I have been reading about them and still know nothing. I want to buy a real nice unit, but there are lots of those. I also want to stay below $400.00 with probes, the unit and accessories.

Which unit did you go with?

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 03:46:32 PM »
I bought a surplus Oakton unit from ebay for $40 that has a BNC connector, and came with a bad electrode. I bought it for the base unit because it takes all kinds of electrodes, ones with a temp sensor and not. I reconditioned the electrode and it works fine now. Then I found some new, surplus Oakton ISFET probes with a stainless steel tip for $28 each, so I bought those as well.

I suggest because I think you'd want support from a vendor and a warranty (I don't need those that's why I went with cheap ebay stuff) to think about the Extech 110 that many have here. It's a small portable unit, unlike mine that has its own carry case, the tech support seems to be fantastic... to the point of shipping out a new meter with no questions asked, it has a flat electrode base, so you could take a soft toothbrush to it if it gets gummed up, the reference solution is a straight KCl, which is cheap, it measures out to .01, has 3-point calibration, and auto temp correction. Those are all important for cheesemaking.

If you went with a solution like mine that has a dedicated BNC, you'd still need to buy an electrode if yours ever went bad. With the Extech, you just buy the entire unit or a new electrode end for $50. But the entire new Extech is cheaper than many single BNC electrodes.

There are similar cheaper models, but I'm not sure about their tech support.

TroyG

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 06:25:48 PM »
I have seen several post about the Extech 110 and it sounds good, but I am worried I am limiting myself going with a unit that will not accept BNC probes. What do you think?

Maybe I could just start with this one and if I decide later I want to upgrade I could sell it and buy whatever I want. Hmmm.......

So when we look at the Extech vs the http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?ProdCode=HI%2099161&id=002002 what does the Hanna have that the Extech doesn't? The ability to connect probes via the BNC of course, but what else?

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 07:07:24 PM »
Well, I'm not sure why you'd ever want a BNC connector. I have a lab set up, so I sometimes need specialty electrodes, so I bought a larger unit. Would you want to be able to buy an electrode that has a point tip so you could easily measure cured meats or pierce into a cheese? The latter could be helpful if you implement HACCP controls and randomly check samples of finished cheeses before sending them out. But you could do the same thing by taking a cheese trier, taking out a sample, and measuring pH with the Extech of the cheese on the end of the trier. If you're doing HACCP, you should be doing sensory evaluations with a trier, anyway.

That Hanna actually doesn't have a BNC connector; it has a DIN connector. It uses standard batteries that last longer. It lets you choose between standard or NIST buffers. Otherwise, they're about the same. Both have ATC, same pH and temp resolution, both are waterproof. The Extech is actually better in several regards because it has a cheaper, refillable electrode and stores more compactly. You can change out both the solution and the reference junction. One advantage of a probe is it may be easier to hold. The Extech is portable, but it's physically more compact and bulky.

I don't know... unless you're doing labwork, like checking thousands of cheeses, the Extech should be good enough. Can you think of a scenario when you'd want another type of electrode?

TroyG

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 08:44:28 PM »
I did not think about using a trier...duh!

I just really meant a way to attach different probes. No I can't think of anything right now, but I am one of those freak that needs to be over prepared. I think the Army did it to me. I am glad we had this discussion because I can now buy the 110 and feel good about it. :-) 

Thanks a million for your time! I have made about 30 pounds of cheese and plan to do another 8 this weekend. Trying to refine my process each time. I am going to be getting a curd knife so I can be more consistent there as well. Making cheese for my family to consume vs selling to the public is inspiring (requiring) me to get more technical with this. Hence the addition of the cheese facility, PH meter, curd knives, cheese vat, etc....etc.....

Truth is I want to produce something I will be proud to sell. I am a perfectionist, so it is a internal battle to keep my demons under control.

Have spent over half my day reading posts on this forum....Man I better do some work.

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 09:45:19 PM »
Sounds like you are well on your way. For commercial sales, log books and consistency are important, as I'm sure you know. Obviously because of repeat sales, but also for helping with issues like pathogen control. Would be heartbreaking to lose everything because of a lawsuit, and perhaps even worse to kill someone because of e coli or listeria. In the former, showing a log of proper pH and sanitation routines could really help. Because with food products, they can become contaminated later on in the chain, so if you can demonstrate proper handling, it's in your favor.

I try to have repeatable results for the simple reason that when I do start selling commercially, I don't want to be so tied to the farm that I can't leave. Want to plug in someone else and give instructions, and not worry about it.

Better schedule more time for reading :). Details are hidden all over the place that I haven't found in any book or class.

MarkShelton

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 11:06:42 PM »
I was following along with this topic, because I am in need of a new pH meter. I bought a cheap pen-type that is failing on me already. I don't know a whole lot about the higher end meters, but the probe-type is something I wanted to start researching.

Can you think of a scenario when you'd want another type of electrode?
I wanted to get a meter that would be appropriate for testing wine also. Would this need a different type of electrode?

linuxboy

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Re: Thoughts/Opinions on this pH Meter
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 11:15:22 PM »
No, this would work. For wine, I prefer a probe for the ergonomics. I usually put it in a beaker and put the electrode in and the cord hangs off to the side. Then I can take a reading from the base unit instead of trying to look at it on the handheld meter or recalling the reading from the memory. Just easier to work with on a table. For wine, having .01 resolution and accuracy is crucial, especially for must. You don't want to overadjust acid or TA because the reading is wrong.