Author Topic: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers  (Read 4984 times)

humble_servant7

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Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« on: March 16, 2010, 07:08:09 AM »
Hi all. So after much deliberation and perusing the forum, I have decided to go with Carter's set-up:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,512.0.html

Which is basiclly a storage container fitted with an element and two spacers which upon to sit the staintless steel pot above it.

I plan on using this 8 gallon (32 quart) pot as my milk vat, which is about 12 inches tall or so I believe:
http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_33_463&products_id=2319.

Which means the storage container that I will be putting the vat inside wont be quite as shallow as Carter, but eh, you get the point.

Any ways, my question is can someone run me down the different kinds of heating elements can one use inside this storage container?

I understand that the voltage number largely depends on the amount of water plus milk one plans on heating, but I was hoping that I could get a sort of a range as to what can do what.

Preferably-- I would like to install several heating elements in there, several of relatively low voltage and several of relatively high ones-- so that I can increase temp as fast as I want it to (typically 3 degress per minute WHEN needed), or make it go as slow as I desire (1 degree per 5 minutes or less). And most importantly-- one that can maintain a target temperature within a 3-5 degree range over a long period of time (18 hours) if need be.

Again-- I understand that without properly telling you ALL the specifics on the amount of water + milk that I plan on heating, that I cant expect a SPECIFIC answer. But I just want a general range into the different kinds of heat elements and how they work/operate in raising/lowering temperature in specific time ratios.

Thanks all.

humble_servant7

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 07:09:57 AM »
I also a looking at the Ranco Thermostat Controllers that both Micah and Carter suggested for better control of the heating elements, that I heard can both chill or heat, and are able to control different types of heating elements at different times:
http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc111100000-digital-temperature-controller010v-output-p-97.html

Any further opinion on this?

Is it a smart investment?

fastdogbrewing

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 09:40:07 PM »
I also a looking at the Ranco Thermostat Controllers that both Micah and Carter suggested for better control of the heating elements, that I heard can both chill or heat, and are able to control different types of heating elements at different times:
http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc111100000-digital-temperature-controller010v-output-p-97.html

Any further opinion on this?

Is it a smart investment?


I have a couple of Ranco controllers I use for ferment chanber temp control.  I have abused them and they still work great.

I also have used Love Controllers and like them a little more, but they are typically panel mounted.

micah

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2010, 02:15:18 PM »
Any ways, my question is can someone run me down the different kinds of heating elements can one use inside this storage container?

I understand that the voltage number largely depends on the amount of water plus milk one plans on heating, but I was hoping that I could get a sort of a range as to what can do what.


I built a cheese bath very similar to Carter's.  I installed a single 1500 watt 120 vac heating element and use the above mentioned Ranco controller (with an external solid state relay).  I also have an aquarium pump in the bath to circulate the water in order to avoid stratification.  This set up works pretty well.  The Ranco controller monitors the water bath; I use a separate probe to monitor the milk.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2485.msg19408.html#msg19408

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2810.msg22582.html#msg22582

Micah

humble_servant7

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2010, 11:04:13 PM »
Any ways, my question is can someone run me down the different kinds of heating elements can one use inside this storage container?

I understand that the voltage number largely depends on the amount of water plus milk one plans on heating, but I was hoping that I could get a sort of a range as to what can do what.


I built a cheese bath very similar to Carter's.  I installed a single 1500 watt 120 vac heating element and use the above mentioned Ranco controller (with an external solid state relay).  I also have an aquarium pump in the bath to circulate the water in order to avoid stratification.  This set up works pretty well.  The Ranco controller monitors the water bath; I use a separate probe to monitor the milk.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2485.msg19408.html#msg19408

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2810.msg22582.html#msg22582

Micah


Yes. very good, Micah. Both you and carter were my inspirations for me finally deciding to go down this path.

Now-- I dont know what a relay is-- first time ever pursuing a project like this, so lease forgive the amateurish questions. Can you briefly explain what that is-- and what its function is and where one could pick one u or buy it from-- if NEEDED.

And secondly-- I've myself been trying to figure out which heating elements to buy.

My common goals for my bath are to hopefully:

A.) Heat u quickly whenever need be at preferably a rate of either 2 degrees or maybe even 3 degrees er minute

B.) Slow down the heat to be able to heat the bath u to 1 degree er minute whenever the initial cooking/acidification process begins.

C.) And most importantly-- be able to maintain a stable target temperature over an approximate number of hours.

Now I figure C would be tackle with the use of a Ranco controller. And that simple math of the size of my vat plus water bath could approximate the amount of heat I would need in order to tackle the requirements of both A and B.

Its just that I have a hard time trying to differentiate between how much heat a 1500 watt element would put out versus, say, a 2000 watt. And I'm not even CLOSE to understanding what the "120 vac" or "240 vac" label means.
Thanks, Micah.


Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2010, 01:20:35 AM »
VAC = Volts AC (alternating current)

humble_servant7

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2010, 10:44:11 AM »
VAC = Volts AC (alternating current)

Okay.. so what does that mean then?

Sorry-- I just dont know anything about this stuff really. I'm just a beginner to all of this.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 12:19:50 AM »
Your car uses DC (direct current). You house uses AC (alternating current). Normal house current in the USA is 110-120 volts (VAC). So 120 vac simply means that it uses normal house current.

micah

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 06:44:26 PM »
Now-- I dont know what a relay is-- first time ever pursuing a project like this, so lease forgive the amateurish questions. Can you briefly explain what that is-- and what its function is and where one could pick one u or buy it from-- if NEEDED.

A "relay" is a device triggered by an electrical current to switch on or off another electrical circuit.  The Ranco device has such a relay built into it; this relay turns the device connected to it, such as a heating element, on or off.  I have configured my Ranco to use an external relay because the internal one can not power a device that requires over 16 amps (for a 120 vac device) or 8 amps (for a 240 vac device).  Where as the internal relay is sufficient to power a 1500 watt vac heating element (1500 watts / 120 volts = 12.5 amperes) it can not power a 4500 watt 240 vac heating element (2500 watts / 240 volts = 18.75 amperes).  I have a non-cheese making use for the Ranco that draws more amps than the internal relay can support.  A 2000 watt 120 vac would require an external relay (2000 watts / 120 vac = 16.66 amperes).

And secondly-- I've myself been trying to figure out which heating elements to buy.

I find the 1500 watt element sufficient for my cheese bath.  The trick is to figure out how hot to heat the water initially (and then turn off the element) in order to heat up the milk to the target temperature and get the water bath temperature to drop to that temperature as well.  My first go around my water bath was too hot and thus the milk temperature continued to rise after hitting the target temperature.  I'm still working on refining my procedure.

One important construction note is that the material that the water bath tub is made of must be able to be exposed to high heat without melting.  The tub I bought at "Cash and Carry" is made of polypropylene, as I recall.


My common goals for my bath are to hopefully:

A.) Heat u quickly whenever need be at preferably a rate of either 2 degrees or maybe even 3 degrees er minute

B.) Slow down the heat to be able to heat the bath u to 1 degree er minute whenever the initial cooking/acidification process begins.

C.) And most importantly-- be able to maintain a stable target temperature over an approximate number of hours.

Now I figure C would be tackle with the use of a Ranco controller. And that simple math of the size of my vat plus water bath could approximate the amount of heat I would need in order to tackle the requirements of both A and B.

"A" and "B" really are contingent upon the amount of milk being heated and, of course, the surface area of the "double boiler" vessel exposed to the water bath, as well as how quickly the water bath can be heated.  The more watts the element is the faster the water can be heated.  I may put a second 1500 watt element in my vessel; I need to play with it more.  Controlled stepping is the most difficult thing to do and I don't have it perfected yet.  It really is a matter of technique; how hot to heat the water in order to step up a temperature without over shooting  for a given time frame.

"C" is the fairly easy to do with the controller and the 1500 watt element works perfectly for my system.

Its just that I have a hard time trying to differentiate between how much heat a 1500 watt element would put out versus, say, a 2000 watt. And I'm not even CLOSE to understanding what the "120 vac" or "240 vac" label means.


So what element to use?  I'm no physicist but I'll pretend.  A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is the energy needed to raise one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit.  1 kw/hr = 3413 BTUs.  Water weighs 8.34 pounds per gallon.

Say there are 5 gallons of water in your water bath then to raise 5 gallons of water 3 degrees requires 5(gallons)*8.34(lbs/gallon)*3(degrees) = 125.1 BTUs.  So 125.1 BTUs/(3413*1.5 kWatt hours) = 0.0244 hours or 1 minute 28 seconds.

But we are not just raising the temperature of the water, we are also raising the temperature of the milk; and milk, not being water, requires more energy to raise its temperature.  But let's just assume the milk is water.  And let's ignore the fact that we are also raising the temperature of the vessels and also losing heat to the environment.  So if we have 4 gallons of milk then it should take less than 3 minutes to raise the temperature of the water and milk 3 degrees with a 1500 watt heating element.

As I mentioned, I'm no physicist and these calculations might be not entirely correct.
 
As mentioned above by others, "vac" stands for "voltage alternating current."  120 volts is standard for homes in the US.  Most electric ovens, clothes dryers, and hot water heaters, however, use 240 volts.  A standard 4500 watt water heater element uses 240 volts.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 06:51:30 PM by Micah »

humble_servant7

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2010, 06:03:37 AM »
A "relay" is a device triggered by an electrical current to switch on or off another electrical circuit.  The Ranco device has such a relay built into it; this relay turns the device connected to it, such as a heating element, on or off.  I have configured my Ranco to use an external relay because the internal one can not power a device that requires over 16 amps (for a 120 vac device) or 8 amps (for a 240 vac device).  Where as the internal relay is sufficient to power a 1500 watt vac heating element (1500 watts / 120 volts = 12.5 amperes) it can not power a 4500 watt 240 vac heating element (2500 watts / 240 volts = 18.75 amperes).  I have a non-cheese making use for the Ranco that draws more amps than the internal relay can support.  A 2000 watt 120 vac would require an external relay (2000 watts / 120 vac = 16.66 amperes).


Ah. perfect explanation, Micah.

In that case-- Since I am looking to heat up 45 gallons of water + milk-- I've figured that in order to at least get to the set interval of 2 degrees per 5 minutes would take a power outage of at least 2903 watts.

So I will more than likely install TWO 1500 120 VAC heating elements each with a separate Ranco controller set to go off at the desired temperature. Unless one controller can power 2 elements at the same time. Then the extra one would just be over-kill.

One important construction note is that the material that the water bath tub is made of must be able to be exposed to high heat without melting.  The tub I bought at "Cash and Carry" is made of polypropylene, as I recall.


Right. I'm on it.

I am already trying to get in contact with a custom polypropylene lace as we speak, to see if they can quote me a price:
http://www.millerplastics.com/tanks.html

It would be great if they could custom-make one for me-- as I cannot find plastic heat-resistant tubs matching the dimensions I need for a water bath vessel that would give sufficient surface area for the heating of my milk.
(10-gallon milk pot is 13-1/2" deep and 15.25" in diameter-- so I figure with the spacers on the bottom I would need the vessel at the very least to be 18", but preferably 20" in height,  20" in width, and 26" in length). thus leading me to exactly 45 gallons being needed.


Micah-- you're the best, man.

micah

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2010, 03:12:06 PM »
In that case-- Since I am looking to heat up 45 gallons of water + milk-- I've figured that in order to at least get to the set interval of 2 degrees per 5 minutes would take a power outage of at least 2903 watts.

So I will more than likely install TWO 1500 120 VAC heating elements each with a separate Ranco controller set to go off at the desired temperature. Unless one controller can power 2 elements at the same time. Then the extra one would just be over-kill.

For that amount of water and milk I would consider going with a 4500 watt (if you can do 240 vac) or two 1500s as there may be times when you want to get the water up to temperature as quickly as possible for the initial rest.

You don't need two controllers.  The built-in relay can be used to switch a dual relay, such as the one pictured in the second link I posted above. 

It would be great if they could custom-make one for me-- as I cannot find plastic heat-resistant tubs matching the dimensions I need for a water bath vessel that would give sufficient surface area for the heating of my milk.
(10-gallon milk pot is 13-1/2" deep and 15.25" in diameter-- so I figure with the spacers on the bottom I would need the vessel at the very least to be 18", but preferably 20" in height,  20" in width, and 26" in length). thus leading me to exactly 45 gallons being needed.

I would also consider, rather than having something custom fabricated out of plastic, to build your water bath vessel out of something like a cut down 55 gallon steel drum.  I'm actually in the process of building one right now.  It will have two 4500 watt elements in it.

Good Luck!

humble_servant7

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2010, 09:07:17 PM »

For that amount of water and milk I would consider going with a 4500 watt (if you can do 240 vac) or two 1500s as there may be times when you want to get the water up to temperature as quickly as possible for the initial rest.

Yeah-- I REALLY wanted the 4500 watt, but since the ampere of it would be over 16, I figured that the internal relay of the Ranco controller wouldnt be able to power it or control it.

Unless you think it would, somehow?

You don't need two controllers.  The built-in relay can be used to switch a dual relay, such as the one pictured in the second link I posted above.

Ah! perfect.


I would also consider, rather than having something custom fabricated out of plastic, to build your water bath vessel out of something like a cut down 55 gallon steel drum.  I'm actually in the process of building one right now.  It will have two 4500 watt elements in it.

Good Luck!

Micah, That is a TREMENDOUS IDEA! I never thought of that. I swear, Micah,  you're the best.  Thanks, man.

fastdogbrewing

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 10:37:01 PM »
I would also consider, rather than having something custom fabricated out of plastic, to build your water bath vessel out of something like a cut down 55 gallon steel drum.  I'm actually in the process of building one right now.  It will have two 4500 watt elements in it.

Good Luck!

That is what I am going to be doing for fermenter control for my homebrewing, only I will be using a heat exchanger to exchange the heat from the drum water to my soon to be built Glycol powerpack.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 12:12:22 AM »
I am making a water bath heater using a stainless steel double sink. They are fairly cheap and easy to find on E-bay. Plan on using twin 1500w 110v elements.

wharris

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Re: Discussion on Heat Elements and their Controllers
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 01:04:08 AM »
I use (5) 2000watt (15amp each) heating elements.

However, I went decidedly low tech compared to you guys.  I am the on/off relay and I am the thermostat....

I just monitor the temp and turn elements on or off as needed. Sometimes I need all 5 going, sometimes only 1.

And yes, that means I have to watch the vat the whoooooole time. 
:(