Author Topic: Beaufort Recipe  (Read 7534 times)

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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2011, 08:34:36 AM »
Being with me through the construction, and knowing my level of carpentry skills, I believe the weights were afraid they'd die an ignoble death, all alone, in the middle of the night.  So they clung tightly to the rope. 
LOL.  Sorry to hear about the clingy weights. I'm sure the cheese will turn out just fine in the end.

I really want to hear how you do with the replacement meter. I too have been considering calling ExTech again to try to correct what I perceive as an instrument problem not a technique problem.

What are those red streaks you mentioned? Are they part of the cheesecloth threads? I have, on occasion, found little threads from the muslin embedded in the surface of the cheese. When I find them, normally early in the process shortly after the press, I tease them out with a clean toothpick.

How much milk did you use to get a 4 lb 10.8 oz wheel? 5 gallons?

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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2011, 08:48:17 AM »
Learnng curve, Boof. It was almost funny, this weight "sandwich", in reminding me to pay attention to everything.  I still think I got at least 2psi, based on nothing more than a hunch, and comparison with how much was on before (how much travel).  Started  thread and posted a pic, so I'm still pretty happy - the smoothest knit I've yet gotten. 

The coloration definitely seems from the cheescloth, but they aren't physical threads.  Pav's thought is that they're perhaps just coloration from the cloth being picked up by the fat in the cheese; indicated coloration among bacilli, etc., would be impossible this early in the game, so in other words I was being paranoid, and that's comforting.  Sort of.  I'll take daft over listeria, any day.

Used 5 gallons for this yield, so 9.2% or thereabouts.   Very interesting process, and seeing it like this, is heartening.  I'm still debating doing a saturated brine only, or a b. linens wash, with an elevated salinity (I've seen this done, in some practices).  I've got some time.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »
A question about early acidification, during the low temp ripening.  In the middle of my second beaufort.  Cultures used were 1/8 tsp Meso Aromatic B, 1/16 (rounded) ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 propionic. 

Assuming my (new) meter is working decently, milk came in at 6.71, and after 1 hour, I'd only gotten to 6.62.  I'm seeking 6.56-6.50, so allowed it to go to 1 1/2 hr, at which time I got 6.59; at 2 hours, 6.56, at which time I renneted.

In terms of maybe upping the meso/thermo mix - aware that each has their role, at various times - any suggestions on tweaking the meso/ST ratio, to decrease ripening time to an hour or less? 

I'd have to go back over some notes from Pav, but I seem to recall there's nothing wrong with a slower, gentler, controlled ripening, in terms of texture and other parameters - in fact, it's a good thing (Pav, I hope I've remembered correctly).  Still, I'd feel better with an hour window, over 1 1/2-2 hours; I'm not quite comfortable with the open window to unwanted flora, and prefer the LAB to get their stronger foothold.  However, I'm not yet versed enough in the acid curve of this style, to be able to intelligently play with altering the meso/thermo mix.

Suggestions?
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2011, 05:55:13 PM »
Arn - you should read up on Mother Cultures.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 06:09:12 PM »
Thank you, Sailor.  I am running a primer culture when I expect to do several of a "breed" in a row - say, several using MM100.  I'm not sure how to apply the thinking, when doing a one-off every few weeks, with mixed (meso/thermo) cultures. 

Additionally, I'm after some discussion of the meso/thermo mix, in terms of the acidification curve; if I merely add in a meso primer culture to up the ante and shorten the early ripening curve, for instance, how will this affect the later characteristics of this cheese?  You mention here:

Quote from: SailorConQueso
Both cultures are active early on and usually facilitate a faster initial pH drop.

So, if that is the case, is there some theory to help guide some thinking, in terms of adding proportionally more meso, more thermo, or both, if using DVI?  What are the ramifications, say, of keeping thermo constant while upping meso, or the opposite?

Can you expand?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 07:35:27 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 06:21:19 PM »
A question about early acidification, during the low temp ripening.  In the middle of my second beaufort.  Cultures used were 1/8 tsp Meso Aromatic B, 1/16 (rounded) ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 propionic. 

Assuming my (new) meter is working decently, milk came in at 6.71, and after 1 hour, I'd only gotten to 6.62.  I'm seeking 6.56-6.50, so allowed it to go to 1 1/2 hr, at which time I got 6.59; at 2 hours, 6.56, at which time I renneted.

In terms of maybe upping the meso/thermo mix - aware that each has their role, at various times - any suggestions on tweaking the meso/ST ratio, to decrease ripening time to an hour or less? 
Yeah, that pretty well coincides with what I see. Sometimes it goes to 3 hours before I see any movement in the pH. The cultures are fresh and have been kept in the freezer so I don't believe it's a question of outdated cultures. It's frustrating, especially when I read of other folks who seem to be ripening according to stated recipes (45-60 min.). Of course the obvious answer is to dump in a higher concentration of the little critters much as you'd do for a quick fermentation start in beer. Then I would think you're faced with a runaway train culture.

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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 11:09:07 PM »
Arn - Look at my original posting of the recipe. The bacteria were:

Mesophilic  - MA011 (1/8 tsp). This develops the initial acidity at the lower ripening temperatures.

Thermophilic  - TA061 (dash - 1/16 tsp). This will develop acidity at the higher temperatures and during early pressing

Thermophilic (Helveticus)  - LH 100 (2 pinch – 1/12 tsp). Enhances proteolysis (protein breakdown) during aging to help create that fabulous Alpine texture.

Aromatic B provides more flavor but is NOT a rapid acidifying culture, so YES it takes quite a while to see pH drops. You can add a little MA-11 ("Meso Acidifier") to move things along quicker. I suggested a Mother Culture because you get much faster results. You can usually expect the correct pH drop almost immediately. As Pav & I have both stated, add MC and you can rennet within a few minutes. The TA ("Thermo Acidifier") doesn't kick in until well into the make, but it will give the needed acidity boost. Measure the surface pH of your pressed cheese and you'll see the results.

Lots of cheeses are being made with Meso/Thermo blends. The meso gives early acidification and a mix of desireable flavor and texture characteristics. Thermo acidifier provides later acidification and more complete lactose conversion. Helveticus gives faster and stronger proteolysis which enhances flavor and accelerates aging. You can't overdo the thermo cultures or your cheeses will all taste like Parmesan.

Your starting pH was a little high for my taste, but you are looking for a "delta" i.e. change in pH, not an absolute before renneting. So a drop from 6.71 to 6.61 would be normal and expected.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2011, 02:09:35 AM »
Arn - Look at my original posting of the recipe. The bacteria were:

Mesophilic  - MA011 (1/8 tsp). This develops the initial acidity at the lower ripening temperatures.


OK.  So, I'm presuming,

Quote from: SailorConQueso
I have been using Aroma B instead of MA-11 for quite some time and I like the flavor much better.


-means that you have a similarly slow drop?  Just wasn't aware of the difference in acidification curve. 

Quote from: SailorConQueso
you are looking for a "delta" i.e. change in pH, not an absolute before renneting.


Thank you, yes, I did recall this, from Francois' mentioning that 1-1.5 was reasonable:

Quote from: Francois
For the time between culture addition and rennetting, always use change in pH.  It's not until you get to process steps later that absolute numbers are necessary.


Given that 6.56 was within the "1.5" delta window from a starting pH of 6.71, I was happy with it as a renneting point.  This, despite my previous experience (you  may or may not recall my earlier posting - whether a bad meter, or a bad make, I apparently had a high pH going into hooping:

Quote from: SailorConQueso
A pH of 6.56 at hooping is WAY off target. You should have that or lower at renneting.


(btw - I took this as an absolute benchmark, not a delta.  From your comment, I also took this to mean 6.56 was on the high end, as an absolute, when renneting).

At any rate, I wasn't horribly concerned about the slow drop (as I mentioned above, I recall a conversation with Pav, re: slow development:

Quote from: linuxboy
We talked about this briefly on the phone. Long, and slow tends to produce the best outcome. When you slowly use the lactic acid to break apart those colloidal calcium bonds in micelles, it will give you a very even disassociation pattern. And a better paste in the finished cheese because that rate of disassociation also influences the degree of casein hydration. It's a very, very important principle in cheesemaking.

Francois here has said he likes for the acid to act slowly on the caseins, and then add rennet when the right acidity is in the milk.


-just looking for some suggestions on a means to tighten it up, a bit (now that I think again of the above conversation, I'm not really concerned over the "long and slow" acidification).  I wasn't aware of the Aroma B curve.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 02:52:57 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2011, 10:27:22 AM »
Yes, there is no question that slow and steady is "better" but that comes with a couple of caveats. You have to be willing to wait longer to hit pH curves and you have to have the patience to wait for your cheeses to age properly. Slow and steady also means that it takes longer for a cheese to age. Many people here on the Forum are in too big of a hurry and want to sample their cheeses the day after they make it. For me as a small commercial micro-creamery, I have to have a balance between long aged quality and sales for cash flow. In Italy, banks take Parmesans as collateral for loans because of the long cash flow cycle.

The MA series means "meso acidifier". It contains Lc. lactis lactis and Lc. lactis cremoris and is the workhorse for lactic acid production. Nothing fancy, but it gets the job done. So much so that Wisconsin has officially designated Lc. lactis lactis as the state bacteria.
Aroma B also contains these bacteria but also includes Lc. b diacetylactis (for diacetyl or buttery flavor) and Leuc m. cremoris (for long chains that improve texture). But neither of these 2 bacteria are very good acid producers.

Let's assume for discussion sake that the MA is an even mix of 50/50% of the two bacteria. Let's also assume that Aroma B is an even mix of 25/25/25/25% of the 4 bacteria. So, the ratio of good acid producers is greatly reduced by 50% in an Aroma B mix. That effectively means that you are using only half of the good acid producers compared to using just an MA culture mix. THAT is why you get much slower acid production with Aroma B, Crème Fraiche, or Flora Danica (they are all the same thing). The slower pH curve is quite a bit less if you use a Mother Culture, because the bacteria are really active from the onset.

So you can either wait it out and ignore the times in the recipes, follow the recipe times and ignore the pH targets, or compensate for the slower pH curve. You can add more Aroma B to begin with to boost the acid producers, but you are also adding more of the other bacteria as well. Or you can add a little extra MA in the beginning to add more of just the strong acid producers. NOW you are creating a custom mix that defines you as a cheesemaker.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2011, 10:30:06 AM »
Excellent.  Thanks for the explication, Sailor, perfectly helps my understanding, and so much appreciated. 

Paul
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2011, 02:05:11 PM »
Thanks, Sailor. That helps my understanding as well. My next make will use the Aroma B as I have been doing but will include a touch more lactis and cremoris to try to increase the acid production and reduce the ripening time. Good stuff.

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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2011, 09:21:49 AM »
Slow and steady also means that it takes longer for a cheese to age.

Sailor, after thinking on this more, you've got me curious, just want to verify I've gotten it correctly. 

It seems to me that it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se, but either the particular meso species (not just their acidification rate, but their particular lysis behavior, on dying, in terms of enzymatic contributions; their ability to withstand the cooking, in terms of numbers surviving the scalding) or bioload (related, though not the same:  more in=more out to make the later contributions, described below).

So - whether by knowing the particular species' behavior in terms of the above (I don't know whether all meso species tend to have the same properties here), or increasing the meso bioload, the later aging is slowed because aging depends, in part, on the lysis and consequent proteolytic activity of the "killed" meso LABs, and, in  a more minor way, aging contributions (a full glycolysis) are aided by the continued activity of the meso LABs that do survive the make; so that the less going in not only slows the ripening, but slows their would-be later contributions, as well. 

Do I have this more or less correctly?

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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2011, 09:47:31 AM »
Quote
it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se

Mostly right. You must develop acidity and break down some of the calcium bonds before adding rennet. For just about all cheeses, this takes about .1 -.15 in pH drop. You also need this drop for the rennet to work properly. For my milk, this means I usually rennet at about 6.5-6.55.

But absolutely, strains matter, amount matters. Sometimes I use adjunct meso strains in addition to a regular meso blend to develop more complex flavor compounds in cheese. One of the challenges of modern cultures is that the ones that are phage resistant and the ones that acidify quickly and predictably tend to not lyse easily. So flavor formation is slow. There are strains (Hansen and Danisco both have them) that do the opposite - build acidity slowly, usually not having enough umph to get much below pH 5.5 before the slow down, but that lyse very quickly and will give you good flavor and aroma formation. I use them in tweaking recipes when consulting for commercial creameries, especially those that use pasteurized milk.

In using normal cultures, like Aroma B, FD, etc, it's just like Sailor said, your heterofermentive tend to develop acid slowly and tend to lyse faster than the classic L. lactis lactis and L lactis cremoris.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2011, 10:00:57 AM »
Quote
it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se

Mostly right. You must develop acidity and break down some of the calcium bonds before adding rennet. For just about all cheeses, this takes about .1 -.15 in pH drop. You also need this drop for the rennet to work properly. For my milk, this means I usually rennet at about 6.5-6.55.

Thanks, Pav.  I should have specified, when I said "it isn't the initial ripening curve that really matters, per se," I was talking only about this concept of how a slow initial ripening retards later aging, which hadn't occurred to me until reading Sailor's comment. 

But absolutely, strains matter, amount matters. Sometimes I use adjunct meso strains in addition to a regular meso blend to develop more complex flavor compounds in cheese. One of the challenges of modern cultures is that the ones that are phage resistant and the ones that acidify quickly and predictably tend to not lyse easily. So flavor formation is slow. There are strains (Hansen and Danisco both have them) that do the opposite - build acidity slowly, usually not having enough umph to get much below pH 5.5 before the slow down, but that lyse very quickly and will give you good flavor and aroma formation. I use them in tweaking recipes when consulting for commercial creameries, especially those that use pasteurized milk.

In using normal cultures, like Aroma B, FD, etc, it's just like Sailor said, your heterofermentive tend to develop acid slowly and tend to lyse faster than the classic L. lactis lactis and L lactis cremoris.

This is fantastic information, a good first-rung handle now on methodologies in actually engineering new cheeses (not merely aping old traditions, or another's recipes).  I will have to dig deeper now on not only which strains are hetero/homofermentative, but how and why they behave differently, in terms of what we're discussing.  Thanks again, gents.
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Re: Beaufort Recipe
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2014, 10:47:02 AM »
Sailor, I think we covered this somewhere but, looking, I wasn't able to find this; I think it was either you or Francois who wrote about it, sorry.  If choosing one MC (and not two, one meso and one thermo), would you opt for the meso (say, MA011), or the thermo (say, ST) - with the balance of whatever SLABs used to be in DVI?  Can you explain the reasoning behind your choice?

Thanks.
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