Vat, Stockpot - Heating With Hot Water From Solar > Gas

[BigCheese]

A few months ago, frustrated by small batches and uneven curd cubes, I decided circular pots were not for me. I thought to use hotel pans (the pans in a buffet) and I have seen here some people were using an electric chafer, which is a great idea because the temp control, but I cannot take the electrical load on my solar system. So then, I looked for the biggest hotel pan I could find, which turned out to be called a spillage pan and was approx 20"x12"x8" deep or 8.3 US gal. Now, after a few months, I am having a hell of a time finding the 8" deep pans again.

Also, the size is still too small because that will be the outer water pan, but the inner pan will have to be even smaller, and I am shooting for at least 8 gallon batches.

So I started calling around to fabricators. Thus far I got one very rough estimate of $300-500 for my custom-made ideal setup. Out of my price range... Does anyone have any ideas? I would much prefer rectangles to circular, But a large shallow circular would be acceptable. The problem being those cost like $350 if you get them stainless.

Anyway, any ideas would be much appreciated. Even just keywords I might search.
Thanks
Nitai

[BigCheese]

I think I might be onto something! Polycarbonate food storage containers. There are many sizes, big enough to do even 20+ gallon batches, which I do not see myself doing. They can withstand heat at least to 212F, far more than is needed for almost all cheeses. What do you all think? They are supposed to resist acidification, but I know they are not as good as stainless or glass.

With that in place my only need would be to find some kind of metal tub big enough to house my container with enough extra space to keep the poly away from all heating elements and safe in 110F or less water.

This is a very exciting potential breakthrough for me.

[Sailor Con Queso]

Polycarbonate is a very poor thermal conductor and will be difficult to heat.

[Cheese Head]

BC, the polycarbonate sounded like a good idea until I read Sailor's post.

I just checked member Debi's thread and you are right, it look like the store that she bought her full size 8" chafing/steam table pan is out of business.

Member Corneilus had a good idea of this water based steam table, kind of looks like it will only hold 4" deep pans and not sure how much water it will hold, maybe they have deeper ones.

Member Carter built a plastic water bath and heater for his XL chafing dish.

I did see another member using the same idea as Carter but with addition of a lid they had cut out to hold the pan, just can't find the thread, sorry.

[BigCheese]

Polycarbonate is a very poor thermal conductor and will be difficult to heat.

Can you elaborate on this? Will it just be slow? I am having trouble seeing how it will be much of a problem if it is submerged in a water bath. Its only function is really to keep the water and the milk from mixing.

[FarmerJd]

He is saying it will take a long time for the heat to travel through the polycarbonate from the water into the milk. Practically speaking that means that you could not make temp adjustments on the milk very effectively. Your water temp would vary significantly from your milk temp. Even with stainless steel I get a difference of 3-4 degrees. You would be looking at a lot more. It is hard to say whether it would work or not but it is definitely not ideal.
As John pointed out from carter's setup, polycarbonate would be great for the outside part of a double broiler because it would insulate the water and keep the heat inside.
Until I got my big pot, I was constantly on the lookout for something too. I wish I was more help. I also noticed your comment about round pots. Square is better for cutting curds uniformly but round pots are easier to design a stirring apparatus for. Since stirring is the most time consuming aspect of cheese making I went round.   Just my two cents worth. Good luck.

[BigCheese]

Thank you for elaborating. Yes, perhaps my best bet would be to invest time and money in customized curd knife and just surrender to the round pot... I do have two big stainless pots already, like the kind for frying turkeys or whatever...

Regarding stirring, you have piqued my curiosity, I had not even thought of a special stirring instrument. What do you have?

[BigCheese]

The problem with Carter's setup for me is I have to heat with fire, can't use electricity. I suppose I could heat water and pour it in, but that is not ideal.

[BigCheese]

Sorry to post so much, but I can't stop thinking about cheese.

So I broke out my big pots and was delighted to find I have one 11 gal 304 SS pot that nests beautifully inside another bigger 304 SS, leaving about 3" on the bottom and 1" or so all the way around. So now I think I will just fashion a curd cutter and be done with it! But I do have the two following questions:

Because this will be a fairly tall setup, and I still only plan to heat with fire from below, will I get very uneven heating even though I have a water bath?

Secondly, is using 304 for both a recipe for disaster?

Sorry again for posting so much, but thank you all.

[FarmerJd]

That sounds like a great setup. If you stir the milk constantly, the fire heating the water won't focus heat on one portion of milk. I use a heating element in my water tank but I do not have to manually circulate the water; it circulates through convection currents sufficiently. The thickness of the steel should not matter since the water is a sufficient buffer.
As far as a stirrer, I will link mine if you promise not to laugh.    It is just an old ice cream churn motor and wooden paddle. I added a rheostat control after this pic. It made a major difference in my cheesemaking "fatigue".

[BigCheese]

Thanks for the encouraging words and awesome ice cream churn rig! I know the perils of stirring. Ever tried to make indian milk fudge (burfi)? Thats cooking milk down to a fudge, and that means hours and hours of stirring and scraping the bottom. I don't think I will be able to rig something cool like you have, I will just have to got he backbreaking route.

[homeacremom]

Why not use hot water  or cold as needed with a hose set up  into your water bath jacket. Put your nested pots in place where you can simply put the hose in the bottom of the water jacket and run water in overflowing the edge and run off until the target water bath temp is reached.
You can soon make a chart for the degrees needed in the water bath to warm set amounts of milk in the cheese vat.

 I can tell you that using direct heat under the water bath is not ideal unless you have a way to circulate the water.
Perhaps if you could put a circulating pump in the bottom of your pot, but that doesn't sound viable in this situation.

[BigCheese]

Running water presents these issues for me:

I am not comfortable letting the water run over for any extended period because, we have only well water and we run off of a struggling solar system. This means the less water we have to pump, the better. Also, regulating the water temp is wasteful because we have a flash heater that is a ways away from the sink, meaning you have to wait and waste in order to even get hot. There is of course the stove, but I just picture getting all flustered going back and forth from hose so sink to stove to thermometer.

Does anyone have a system for this that is easier than I am thinking it will be, and that uses less water?\

Thanks,Nitai

[humble_servant7]

Why not use hot water  or cold as needed with a hose set up  into your water bath jacket. Put your nested pots in place where you can simply put the hose in the bottom of the water jacket and run water in overflowing the edge and run off until the target water bath temp is reached.
You can soon make a chart for the degrees needed in the water bath to warm set amounts of milk in the cheese vat.

Hmmmm.. this sounds interesting. Mind elaborating a bit more on this "water jacket" procedure? Got a link to anything that can break this all down for me?

Because that plan sounds mighty good

[Sailor Con Queso]

Use solar heated hot water. Even on cloudy days you can generate water that is way hotter than needed for cheese. A simple old hot water heater tank sitting in the direct sun would do it. Then circulate from the tank to a vat/tub with a low volume D.C. pump. Even the pump could run on a small photovoltaic panel (cheap on eBay). This would work great for Mesophilic cheeses that are only heated to 101F or less. Thermophiles (Swiss & Italian types) might be more difficult because they are heated to a much higher temperature during final cooking. You could still process them through the ripening, curd set, and some early cooking and then move to a stove or other heat source for the final cooking.