Hello from Louisiana

[briandavis0]

Linux and Kosher Baker,

Thanks!

Just a few clarifications:

1. Are the bacterial strains you mention (lactococcus lactis & leuconostoc mesenteroides and the "classic lactococcus blends") derived from non-dairy sources? From the sounds of their names, it appears as though there is some lactose in them! ... I ask merely as I am trying to make a purely vegan cheese.

2. From the little understanding I have of cultures, I assumed my cultured vegan buttermilk would work as a mesophilic starter. Perhaps it is not, and I thus need to use the strains you mention. Assuming that these cultures are vegan, would I add them to the cultured buttermilk starter I've already made? Or would I add at the same time as I add that starter (prior to adding the rennet/coagulant) to the milk? Or would I add it INSTEAD of my homemade vegan starter?

3. Assuming that these cultures are vegan, and to be added to the milk initially as a starter, would I then add the Nigari and/or Gypsum, INSTEAD OF or WITH organic vegetable rennet, after allowing the starter to set? Or is this where I might need to experiment?

4. Regarding the epsom salt: would I only use this to TEST for coagulation -- say, if I don't know IF a certain nut/seed/coconut milk will coagulate at all, would I use it to discover whether it's even possible, then proceed?

Again, I can't thank you enough. The coconut attempt was a meshy, messy blob ... Tastes really good, but is taking forever to drain ... At present, it's in cheesecloth and fine mesh strainer ... I'll wait til tomorrow to see if it drains dry enough to press ...
The macadamia/cashew "cheddar" I made before (which ALMOST curded) pressed nicely and is now air-drying ... Waiting to wax and age it ...

[linuxboy]

Are the bacterial strains you mention (lactococcus lactis & leuconostoc mesenteroides and the "classic lactococcus blends") derived from non-dairy sources?

Call up Danisco and/or Chris Hansen, or Abiasa and ask what their culture media is. They do use whey powder and skim milk a lot.

cultured vegan buttermilk would work as a mesophilic starter.

yes, should, but strains are important in the bacteria world. They have different properties. You're not only trying to acidify, but also build body and flavor. If you can't get a variety of options, use what you can.

would I add them to the cultured buttermilk starter I've already made?

Use them in place of starter. They are a starter. Or in combination. Again, any bacteria can acidiy, and specific strains are used for building body and flavor.

Nigari and/or Gypsum, INSTEAD OF or WITH organic vegetable rennet, after allowing the starter to set? Or is this where I might need to experiment?

There are three ways to coagulate milk. One, by precipitating the proteins by changing the ionic balance (adding calcium/magnesium salts). Two, by acidifying to where the charge of the proteins changes. bringing them out of solution. And three, by enzymatic action. You can use one or more means to get to where you want. They can often be used together. For example, enzymes are more active at lower pH levels. rennet is typically most active at 5.5, for example.

4. Regarding the epsom salt: would I only use this to TEST for coagulation -- say, if I don't know IF a certain nut/seed/coconut milk will coagulate at all, would I use it to discover whether it's even possible, then proceed?

Yes, point is to not waste the milk.

[Hafsa Noreen]

Hi Brian i've also tried to make cheese with coconut milk. I've used mesophilic culture and rennet but it didn't worked at all.
I am posting on this after a decade of this conversation. I hope there will be a way to make vegan cheese from coconut up to untill now. Can you guide me would it be possible and how to do that

[mikekchar]

Hi Hafsa.  Unfortunately, it can not be done.

Cheese is made from casein protein that is in milk.   Only animal milk has casein in it.

Even when you make "yogurt" with vegetable milks, it doesn't thicken like animal milk.  Instead you have to use a special bacteria that makes the yogurt thick from carbohydrates (complex sugars), rather than protein.

Tofu is made similarly to cheese, but again the protein is completely different and it works very differently.

The flavor in cheese comes from the way that the casein protein breaks down as the cheese ages.  Other proteins have *completely* different flavors.  Even if you make something that looks like cheese using a vegetable milk, it will never taste like cheese because there is no casein.

You can buy vegetable casein made in a lab, but I've never heard of anyone making cheese from it.  I think it's basically impossible right now.  Maybe something in the far future?

Some people make "vegan cheese" using nut butters or nut tofu.  The most common that I've heard of is cashew nut butter "cheese" or cashew nut tofu "cheese".  These can have a nice texture.  You can even grow mold on the outside so that it looks like cheese.  However, it does not taste like cheese, or have the texture of cheese.

Basically, cheese is make from animal milk casein and there is no way to make that using vegetables right now.

[Hafsa Noreen]

Oh that's something terrible to know that.
What i was thinking that cheese is basically the coagulation of protein. As far we were using animal milk so we have a way to coagulate animal milk protein that is casein and rennet enzyme are what cause casein protein to cheese.

If it is so, then there must be a way to coagulate plant protein. As there is albumin and globulin proteins, what can we use to coagulate them?

Again of course it won't give same flavour or texture, stick to the basic principle of cheese, what can i use for "other protein" to work it like a cheese with might be a difference of flavor

[mikekchar]

I was vegan for 10 years of my life and I made tofu for a lot of that time.  I love tofu (and especially "yuba", which is the Japanese name for a kind of soy milk skin that forms when you simmer soy milk).  There are so many amazing tofus too: peanut tofu and sesame seed tofu are *amazing*!

I also make miso, which is fermented soy/wheat/rice into a salty fermented paste.  It's not like cheese really, but it is an intense and really wonderful flavor and there are many, many amazing miso dishes in Japanese cuisine.  In Chinese cuisine there are many other similar fermented products.  I don't know how to spell it, but fermented black beans are really similar.

There are types of fermented tofu as well (so called stinky tofu).  And there are things like tempeh.

None of these taste like cheese.  None of them have the texture of cheese.  None of them are cheese.  It doesn't make them bad.

You can't make cheese without animal milk.  If you try to makes something like cheese with vegetable protein, it might be OK, but it will never be great.  Many countries have fermented foods that they have made for thousands of years.  In my opinion, as someone who *loves* those foods, I think you should pursue and learn about them and not about cheese.  Don't waste your time on a bad substitute.  Eat amazing food.