My First Raw milk Tomme - Help?

[iratherfly]

Thamk you guys!
I originally started this wanting to re-do my 'Drunken cow' success (Tomme de Syrah) which was made in vacuum for 65 days. This is where the beer wash idea came from, but looking at this mushrommy dusty smelling thing brings back the feeling of Tomme Crayeuse (except theu also use some ridiculous glowing green mold - no idea what it is). So being that this is the first raw milk Tomme I've ever made, I am going to respect the milk and let it grow wild. Linuxboy's opinion is kind of the same as the email I just got from Jos (Oude Kaas). He also commented about raising the humidity. I am thinking of lining up the aging container with hay to enhance the micro-organism's growth and ambient humidity.  Thank you guys for this!

Debi... maybe then you can be the first to reply to my Reblochon question thread from 2 days ago? http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4291.0.html - Your color reassures me that I may be doing the right thing after all. How long do you age them for? What do they smell like at this point? (Yours are a week older than my current batch)

[iratherfly]

Okay, day 70 was time to crack it open.  The cheese looked rather hard and dry so I wanted to cut into it ASAP fearing that it is getting dry. It smelled like mushrooms and earth with no hint of cheese.

Boy, was I surprised to find a very moist cheese under the thin rind. In total contrast to the rind, the paste smelled cheesy (Cheddar, Comte, Gruyere, Gouda) and with no hint of the rind's mushroominess. I suppose that in spite of the thinness of the rind, it was dense enough to keep the moisture locked in, yet too thin to give the cheese its character. Flavor-wise it closer to a vacuum-aged Cheddar than to a Tomme de Savoie. A bit salty and none of that heavy mushroom character you can smell so well in the rind (Mycodore). The texture was flexible with random medium-small eyes. Well, at least I finally made a proper Tomme that isn't flaky/chalky. Yay!

The rind was my fear from day one (as you can see from previous posts). I have inoculated Mycodore, B.Linen and Yeast into the milk. I have taken several dip-and-dry sessions in bacterial brine on the first week. I kept it in a moist and aired conditions and around 55F. I waited and waited for that wild mold but it hardly came and remained largely unchanged since about day 25. Cave conditions? Cow's feed? Or maybe, my initial hunch to wash or rub with ale, wine, coffee grounds or even balsamic was good after all?

I suppose I expected raw milk to give me interesting characteristics from enzymes that would not exist in pasteurized milk but I got less character than my pasteurized Tommes which I find shocking. Don't get me wrong, this is a good basic cheese and would serve me well in sandwiches (melts well too!). It is just too laborious and costly to make for something that lacks enough character to make it to a cheese plate.

Here are the photos. Forensic opinion anyone?

[DeejayDebi]

The pastes looks very tastey but wasn't? I ind a lot of the french cheese costly for what they give you - especially if you don't like the rind, like me.

[iratherfly]

It wasn't un-tasty, it just lacked the character I expected from a raw milk Tomme with wild rind of B.Linen, Geo and Cylindrocarpon. One doesn't need to eat or like the rind in order to appreciate the flavor and aroma it gives the paste. Without it I feel that the taste is too generic and unexciting. It seems that every cheese I really love has a good rind around it... I must learn the art of rinding...

[DeejayDebi]

True sometimes the rind makes the cheese. Maybe a bit more aging?

[OudeKaas]

irf, I was browsing around and found this thread of yours. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the detailed sensory impression you gave of this cheese effort! I am loving this board, especially for all of the specifc and useful technical feedback (with only RC's book in hand I would not be, say, using the right amount of weight, pressing under whey, trying a washed rind). But I often wish that folks would be more descriptive of how their cheeses taste!

Your description above gave me an excellent picture of how this cheese turned out, and pinpointed exactly what you thought worked and did not taste-wise. Bravo! I hope to see more of the same from folks here.

[iratherfly]

Oh, Brandnetel! Thank you, ...you make me blush here 

I think that the issue is that not everyone like to blabber in the middle of the night about cheese like I do...

You know, a while back there was a bit of a Crottin madness going on around here. People clued in that this was a simple abundant cheese that is well liked, popular and should be easy to make.  There were a million suggestions, recipes, success and failure stories here. Most of them were from people who never tasted Crottin ever before and had no idea what it should taste or look like. As it turned out when pictures and recipes began floating around that even people who thought they succeeded making the perfect Crottin made some great cheese - but it was nothing like Crottin.

My point is; many people want to make great cheese but fail - not due to any lack of talent but simply because they never tried the cheese they set out to make or their palate has not developed enough to detect the differences; simply because they haven't tried enough cheese varieties as consumers.  I think that having a broad and sensitive palate is the most valuable commodity of any cook or artisanal food maker, especially in such challenging cultured and aged products such as cheese and wine. 

I have been very privileged to grow up in a household where great cheese was consumed, tested and appreciated. I am now very lucky to live in a town that is full with incredible world-class fromageries very knowledgeable fromagiers and affineurs.  I make it a point to take advantage at it.  (by the way, I give them tastes and get the most incredible structured feedback on my cheese that anyone would ever give me so that on its own is amazing).  I don't think I would be able to invent cheeses if it wasn't for the inspiration and tastes I get at local cheese shops and visiting markets whenever I go abroad.  The more you eat them, the more you have to aspire to and the better cheesemaker you become. I am so happy I can finally "pass the buck" and that it can possibly help people like you improve your cheese skills too.  I got a lot of help on this board and others here help me too, all the time.

[Boofer]

For some reason I too missed this thread. I love the look of your cheese, inside and outside. Sorry it didn't entirely fulfill your expectations.

Hey, I like to blabber in the night. Perhaps you already guessed that.

I've made Esrom according to the 200 Easy Cheeses recipe. I know the rind was wrong and I hope to improve the next time I make that style. I too am guilty of making a cheese I've never tasted. I see pictures to know what it should look like, but having visited many markets and cheese supply shops locally, I have yet to locate anyone who sells Esrom. I will try to buy it online.

I had an opportunity yesterday to finally taste a 12-month-old Manchego. There's another style that I had made according to a recipe, but never tasted before. It is very important to have the sensory experience enjoyed with cheese, including the sight, smell, taste, texture, and satisfaction (or disappointment) of the final flavor profile on the palate.

-Boofer-

[FRANCOIS]

You'll never know what was lacking.  The texture looks good, no slits, and the rind line is fairly shallow.  You could have gone another 30-60 days easily without drying out.  A tomme like that I would expect an initial rind sesnory flush followed by a profile dominated by the paste.  Your recipe indicates you only added MA as a starter, with a bunch of surface ripeners,  but didn't add anything to work on the body.  I presume this is because you wanted the natural flora in the raw milk to do that work for you.

I would suggest one or more of the following additions:
-thermo of your choice, TA050 is nice as is LH100.  Just stay away from rapid acidifiers.
-micrococci
-lactobacilli
-shot gun approach of PLA or ARN

Good luck.

[ArnaudForestier]

"Just stay away from rapid acidifiers..."

Francois, if I could hijack a bit, though relative to your above comment.  (Apologies Iratherfly, for drawing another comment). 

I just made a first tomme with MA4001, as well; did about a 1.25% primer culture inoculation, and had what seems to me to be a really rapid pH drop - from milk at 6.61 to 6.42 1/2 hr after inoculation, to a very low 5.0 by the time I finished the initial press schedule, until a final 4.77 at brining time.  Obviously, my technique is at fault, as MA is used to excellent results by more experienced makers (I have become something of an online acolyte of linux, yourself, Sailor, and a few others....).

Can you go into this a bit more?  Is the s. thermophilis component of the MA4001 perhaps something to watch out for, in terms of a too-rapid acidification?  If so - is yours a general recommendation to avoid fast acidifiers, or, if using them, to adjust inoculation rate, temp, etc., to retard them, a bit? 

Basically, just curious on your comment, relative to using MA4001 or similar in a high initial-pH cheese, like tomme.  Thanks.

[FRANCOIS]

As you know that pH drop is far too fast and deep for this cheese.  MA4001 is a slow to mildly medium acidifier.  At 6.42 I'd be running the curd for pressing.  What was the pH of your starter?  Did you wash the curd and if so did you check your water pH?

When I used to make raw milk tomme I used 4001 as my base meso, never had an issue with it.

[ArnaudForestier]

As you know that pH drop is far too fast and deep for this cheese.  MA4001 is a slow to mildly medium acidifier.  At 6.42 I'd be running the curd for pressing.  What was the pH of your starter?  Did you wash the curd and if so did you check your water pH?

When I used to make raw milk tomme I used 4001 as my base meso, never had an issue with it.

Thanks for the reply, Francois. 

I wasn't aware the MA was considered a moderate-rate acidifier (going on Danisco's description in part, "S. thermophilis for quicker acid production..." but wasn't aware that is relative to others. 

The starter pH was 4.37.

I achieved 6.42 at the end of 1/2 hour of primer inoculation - but no rennet had yet been added.  Am I hearing you right, you'd cut and press?  I had no coagulum at that point, just the milk at that pH; rennet took quite awhile, 24 min floc, so I went with a 3x multiplier, cut, stirred and cooked over 40 minutes from 31C to 37.8 (wanted 1/2 hr rise, it just took longer).  Held at 37.8 an additional 20 minutes, to get the "sticky matting, somewhat firm" texture per Pav's recipe. 

I did not wash this one - though I take to heart your comment on washed curd tommes to achieve the "nuttiness" which is primary and appealing to me - as I was trying everything out, including Yoav's PID-controlled vat, for the first time.  I do intend to do a washed curd run, after getting a few more batches in.

So, MA4001 isn't the issue, then.  Presuming the 1.25% inoculation must have been too much?  Anything popping out why I would have gotten such a radical drop, given the above? 

[FRANCOIS]

MA is medium to low, I think it's their R series that are fast acidifers.  When I say I'd be running curd at that pH, it means I would have adjusted my process to suit.  For example if my starting pH was 6.7, I'd ripen to 6.55 or 6.6, then added rennet.  I'd take my floc (probably 12 minutes) and do 3x for cut.  I'd heal, stir and drain whey/add water and stir again.  I'd be at about 6.35-6.4 at this point and the curd would be run to the presses. 

I would note of your comments:
-A 24 minute flocultion indicates something wrong with your milk. 
-4.37 is very low for starter.  We mix ours to target 5.0

Without a wash you will most likely get body defects, primarily slitting, and your ripening cultures will probably act funny with such a low core pH to start.  Your surface will lag behind a bit and overall aging will be retarded unless you added cultures which can jump right on a low pH like that (OFR9 is a good example of one that can).

[ArnaudForestier]

OK, thanks.  This milk is a vat pasteurized, cream line milk, and I had no success in getting the globules fully mixed in.  I didn't want to agitate in the bottle too much.  The milk I currently have is an HTST milk I've always had success with in making good fresh cheese, so returning to that, at least through this learning curve. 

You mention elsewhere that floc time isn't necessarily related to rennet amount; I had thought the slow time was perhaps due to a too-low rennet dosage.  Can you elaborate on what some of the variables are, that affect the floc time?

So, if the milk was at 6.61, I should have just monitored to 6.55-6.5 (i.e., represents about a 1-1.5pt pH drop, as your 6.7-6.55/6.6), or just drop rennet in whenever reaching the 6.55-6.6, regardless of the starting milk pH? 

I'm also gleaning that as I had such trouble getting floc, all the more time at 88F for the LAB to go to town, yes?  Ended up with a 72 minute renneting as opposed to a 36 minute renneting, in other words.

Will re-do the primer to achieve a pH 5.0.  It seems that with tomme, so long as there is viable LAB in reasonable amounts, "erring" on the side of a higher initial pH is the only way to go, so watching carefully all along the way for pH changes is imperative - yes?

Interesting on the cooked-stirring, v. washed-curd, in final texture.  I'll do it.  Now it occurs to me - without the wash, esp. if I had lag in the floc and too long a time at 88F for coagulation, I had a ton of residual lactose, and massive cfu's LAB to metabolize it.  To retard the drop, it seems obvious to me now, wash the curd - yes?

Can you guide the science behind the "slits?" in cooked method, here?

Finally, on the wash water - sorry if this is picayune - but we've a 10-stage filter that does a decent job of CL-  removal ("99.9%"); any reason this couldn't be used, or do you use distilled/RO/D.I water?

A quick glance of OFR is that it's used on Gubbeen, among others.  I see you also mention that OFR is very close to PLA, which I have - presumably, it has lower pH optima-spp?

Thanks for all the information - understanding more, very much appreciated. 

[FRANCOIS]

Answering your questions in order:

Variables that affect floculation time:
-pH
-Protein/fat ratio
-calcium content
-Overall solids content
-How well you diluted and stirred the rennet in
-phase of the moon
-what you had for breakfast

The last two are obviously in jest, but I include them to point out that not every parameter can be controlled and sometimes the milk is just off for some unknown reason.  99% of the time though, it's not an issue.  If you follow your recipe, add a little extra calcium and the milk is relatively fine, you will get a 7-15 minute floculation time.

For the time between culture addition and rennetting, always use change in pH.  It's not until you get to process steps later that absolute numbers are necessary.  Yes, the longer you waited for floculationa nd then 3x, the lower your pH got.

I always wash the curd in a tomme, and actually most semi-soft yellows.  Unless ou are making a wheel that is so big you can age to for years to completely break the paste down and ripen it, you should wash a tomme.  It also allows better pH conditions for other good bugs to start dewveloping flavour and aroma.  If you have such a low pH for so long, it really retards maturation.  That is why cheddar takes forever to mature, anything under 6-10 months is tangy and acidic.


Slitting due to Ph occurs because the curd is so brittle.  As the cheese wheels are aged, moved, flipped, rubbed and dried out, the brittle paste breaks and slits.  As the cheese dries out some more those slits expand. 

I never stress about water.  We use straight city water here with a healthy dose of chlorine, no issues.