My Jarlsberg #1 & Jarlsberg #2

[Sailor Con Queso]

Boofer - Just to clarify an important point.

Most of us make a SATURATED brine solution using whey. The difference here is that Swiss types call for just a 1-2% salt concentration. A gallon is 128 ounces so the salt should just be 1.3-2.6 ounces per gallon of whey. I use 2 POUNDS per gallon for a saturated brine. That's a HUGE difference in the amount of salt used for a Swiss. That's what keeps the rind pliable.

[Boofer]

Wow, that is a huge difference. For these cheeses I had cut my brine to 2 cups kosher salt in a gallon of whey. By your guidance, that's still WAY TOO MUCH! And yet my rind is nice and pliable....

1 or 2% is enough to get the job done? Wouldn't seem like it provided enough salt flavoring or protection at that dosage. If that's what works for you consistently, I'm willing to follow suit.

-Boofer-

[Sailor Con Queso]

Boofer - Pliable and elastic are not necessarily the same thing.

This is not my technique. Just following the specifications and advice of people who have been doing this a really long time. Francois - Any comments on brine concentration for Swiss types?

I misspoke in a previous post. I thought my spec sheets were from Danisco. They are from Hansen. I have attached a redacted short version, but the entire longer document is somewhere in the archives.

Note the brine concentrations in the table on page 1. Also notice the ripening schedule and temperatures on page 2. For practical purposes, I put Jarlsberg in the same category as Emmental. Baby Swiss is a Meso cheese so it's a little different, but I treat it the same way.

[linuxboy]

Um, Sailor, that's the final salt percentage in the finished cheese. The brine is just to contrast to the dry salting, because some are dry salted and some brine. it's not a 1% brine. Usually they just use saturated for ease, and sprinkle salt on top, too. It's because propionic is so salt sensitive... not a good idea to have above 2%, you get poor eye development.

[Boofer]

Boofer - Pliable and elastic are not necessarily the same thing.

For practical purposes, I put Jarlsberg in the same category as Emmental. Baby Swiss is a Meso cheese so it's a little different, but I treat it the same way.

Can you clarify the difference between pliable and elastic in the rind?

Going off the Norwegian study I attached earlier, I put Jarlsberg in the same class as Gouda. I used Aromatic B (a mesophilic) plus the propionibacterium for the two Jarlsbergs. This is actually the same as my Baby Swiss. Hmmm, could be about the same in taste and texture, except that the Baby got a small dose of Flora Danica when it wouldn't budge the pH meter. Should be interesting down the road.

Okay, so now I'm a little confused...again. Should I cut the amount of salt down from 2c/gal or go up to 4c/gal (2lbs/gal) for saturated brine?

I do sprinkle salt on top of the cheese when I place it in the whey-brine and when I flip it half way through.

-Boofer-

[Sailor Con Queso]

Um, Sailor, that's the final salt percentage in the finished cheese. The brine is just to contrast to the dry salting, because some are dry salted and some brine. it's not a 1% brine.

ROTFLMAO  Of course it's the final salt percentage! Duh... I just recently switched to the low salt brine and have 2 Babies swelling as we speak. They will probably taste undersalted. However on all of my previous Swiss types I did use saturated brine but cut the time in half to keep the rind elastic.

Boofer - my mistake. Stick with the saturated brine. I describe pliable as a basketball. You can certainly push in a little but overall there isn't that much give. Elastic is like a balloon and has much more give. So when a Swiss starts swelling, it's the elasticity that counts.

[linuxboy]

Hmm, wonder what the difference in eye development will be. And what would happen if you brined after taking them out of the warm room? Maybe you just invented a better cheese.

The traditional producers have it easier with their huge wheel sizes in terms of getting elasticity

[Boofer]

Hey, wait a minute.

You mean, modify the process thus:

• make the cheese
• press the cheese
• dry the cheese in the cave for ~10 days or more
• move the cheese to warmer area
• grow the eyes for 3-4 weeks
• brine the cheese (saturated  )
• dry the cheese off
• move the cheese back to cave
• age the cheese for 2-18 months
• eat the cheese

Would that work? Seems like you're inviting nasties to come dine without some brine protection.

-Boofer-

[linuxboy]

Boofer, ordinarily that would be true. BUT, propionic acid kills bacteria. I mean, the final pH of emmethaler is something like 6.0, hardly acidic, and it keeps for a long time. Also, if there are strains of nisin-producing bacteria, then that acts as another preservative.

Emmenthaler usually has less rennet than other hard cheeses, so rennet-induced proteolysis and off flavors are reduced, and would go away after aging. Ordinarily, without salt, the rennet, even animal rennet, would cause off flavors. In theory, it actually could work. Might need some tweaking like adding bacteria adjuncts for bioprotection or perhaps using lysozyme.

[Sailor Con Queso]

LB - really intresting idea. The 2 babies I have swelling right now are obviously very elastic because of the light brining. So I like that aspect of it. My best eye development in the past was with saturated brine, but half the time called for and the finished cheeses have not been lacking in salt flavor. I have done this with Baby, Emmental, and Jarlsberg.

When the Babies are finished with eye formation in a couple of weeks, I will re-brine them in a saturated solution and see what happens. My only concern is that the rind will not be as permeable as a fresh pressed cheese and won't uptake the salt as well anyway. The really good news is that by then the Propionic have done their thing and won't be effected by the additional salt.

[Brie]

Great thread here--thanks for the info LB!

[Boofer]

I started Jarlsberg #1 on June 2nd. Today I cut it to see how it's coming along. I was surprised.

The first thing I didn't see were the holes I was expecting. No holes. It sat out at 64-72F for three weeks. I had vacuum-bagged it early on when cracks started to show. The bag filled with gas and I changed out the bag several times and it filled with gas yet again. But no holes.

The texture was smooth and creamy...like Havarti. What's going on here? There was a slight bitterness. Salt level seemed okay, maybe a little lean.

The flavor was not really Jarlsberg. This cheese is still young. Let's see what a little more time does for it. I hope that Jarlsberg #2 fares better. I will resist the temptation to crack it until Christmas or New Years.

The weather is coming in cooler again so I feel like retrying this style. This time I'll forgo the nitrate and see how that goes. I'll also use dry calf rennet instead of the mucor tablets.

Anyone have an idea how the bag filled with gas and yet no holes were produced? Doesn't seem to show contamination.

-Boofer-

[BethGi]

Oh dear! I've followed it's whole evolution with fascination, since as a new cheese maker, I have so much to learn. But my first simple attempt at jarlsberg (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4090.msg37230.html#msg37230) has produced pretty good holes!

I used the 200 recipes version, and took a bit of tweaking instruction courtesy of Sailor [thx!]. Saw only the slightest hint of swelling. But I basically didn't move it from my 50+ degree cave after I bagged it. Could moving and re-bagging, etc. have affected your cheese's development? Just a thought...like I said, I am not an experienced person, just going on instinct.

[Sailor Con Queso]

Boof - assuming everything else was OK, the crack(s) allowed the gas to escape. Therefore, no holes and no flavor. This is especially true if the cracks happen near the beginning of gas production.

BethGi - Swiss types must be aged at room temp for a while to encourage gas production. Did you do that or just leave it a 50F the whole time? Almost all cheeses need to be "moved" (turned) periodically during aging to equalize moisture and fat distribution.

[BethGi]

No, after initial drying and its initial cooling off period of a week or so, I left it out for five weeks at room temp (which was low 70s with A/C). Sorry -- that wasn't clear from the earlier post.

But what I was wondering was whether lots of movement of a cheese could also contribute to offgassing -- just like us humans (?!). I understand the turning (though perhaps am not doing it often enough, which is probably why the differential moisture is visible on my Jarlsberg), but also thought that too much moving/jostling could hurt development.