Author Topic: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion  (Read 1594 times)

Offline the big cheese

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Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« on: June 18, 2010, 03:28:54 AM »
Hey all,
I have a question about using rind from a cheese to create a culture? I bought some cheese last night and was told that I could keep the rind to create a culture for a new batch of cheese? How do I go about this? How much rind would I need for say, 1 gallon of milk? Can it be kept and mixed with other rinds to make your own unique culture? Humm.. Maybe my imagination is running wild  ?


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Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 07:26:09 AM »
It depends on a lot of things, and there are a lot of things that can go wrong. What kind of cheese did you get?
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Offline the big cheese

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 07:50:57 AM »
I was actually bought it by a friend who didn't make a note of its name. Its a semi hard raw cow's milk cheese with a thick rind, sorry if that's not much to go by.

:~/ 

Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 05:50:14 PM »
Hmmm.... well, for a hard or semi-hard cheese, I'm not sure it would even work. If it has been aging for a long period, which is almost certain since it is a raw milk cheese, I believe the cultures may have done their thing already, and died off. The remainder of aging works on the enzymes in the cheese. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) That's why raw milk cheeses are safe to eat after 60 days; any bacteria (cultured or from contamination) use up the available food and die off.

If it had been a blue cheese, the cheese would have probably made a sufficient starter for the blue mold, though there is no telling what strain was used, and if it is the best type or if it is the easiest or most appropriate for large scale production.

For soft cheeses like camembert or reblochon, it may be possible also, though for some cheeses, the cultures are added at different times during the make or aging (reblochon, for example has geo added during the make, b. linens added in the brine wash, and possibly p. canadidum late in aging). Also, this assumes that no chemical stabilizers were added to keep the cheese from over-aging while on the shelf.

Sorry to be a downer :( but it may be best to research the type of cultures used in your favorite cheeses, then buy the cultures.

I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.

Offline the big cheese

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 05:29:45 AM »
Ah well, I guess I'm trying to find ways of making my own culture and so far, buttermilk seems to be the only one we can make ourselves at home. I find buying small quantities of culture actually works out quite expensive? Maybe I need to find somebody in the UK that buys in bulk..

Thanks for all the great tips as always ;)


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Offline the big cheese

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 07:46:45 AM »

Hey
I just realised I may have asked the wrong question. I just spoke to a cheesemonger who mentioned I could use B-Lines rind to make a B-Lines orange growth the cheese.

So, does anybody have any information on this? Do I simply cut the rind off say, a Limburger and wipe it over my cheese to get the bacteria to grow on the rind? What if I want it to be inside the cheese also, when do I add the rind from the Limburger to my new cheese?

Blines is quiet expensive to buy in the uk so Im trying to cut corners.

Thanks again for your help.

Steve

Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 07:55:50 AM »
I think it was Francois that said in another thread that this is possible. It's not as consistent as using a culture, but it will transfer from cheese to cheese.

The method is a little different though. Instead of cutting off the rind on your purchased cheese, wipe it down with a rag dipped in a 3% brine. Then take the same rag and brine to wipe down the cheese you are making. I would probably do this daily for a week, then every few days until you see the orange developing on your own cheese.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 09:52:46 AM »
I think there's an un-asked question out there: are you just beginning to make cheese...is this your first cheese?  ???

If so, I don't think an experimental process such as 'making culture from rind' is a confidence-builder for a budding cheesemaker.  ;)

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Offline the big cheese

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 10:13:05 AM »
I think I may have worded my question wrong sorry.

Its not a culture I'm trying make, I'm trying to use the rind from one cheese to promote molds and bacteria onto another cheese. I was told that I could cut the rind from a Limburger and use the B-Linens from its rind to start the growth of molds and bacteria onto another cheese instead of using a fresh packet of B. Linens.

I was just wondering how this was done? Is this possible?

Sorry for the mixup!

Offline Boofer

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 02:24:13 PM »
I think Mark's answer was pretty clarifying. One thing to keep in mind is that the orange "rind" on some domestic (USA) Muenster cheese may not actually be b. linens, but may instead be annatto coloring or something similar. I'm not sure about the Limburger. Could be similar.

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Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 08:34:35 PM »
Good point Boofer. Yes, I think most commercial American "muenster" (the kind you find in large bricks at the deli) won't have any kind of surface bacteria at all, just rubbed with powdered red annatto. I assume this is true in GB also; Americans can't be the only ones that market and buy cheap sliced deli cheese. However, if you were talking with a cheesemonger, presumably at a reputable grocer or specialty food store, I'm sure he can set you up with a viable, bacteria-ripened cheese that will work for you.

Have you made any cheeses like this before? If not, I think you'll be ok, just be sure to read some more of the threads on smear ripened cheeses from more experienced cheesemakers.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.

Offline the big cheese

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 07:02:38 AM »
Great, thank you for that!

I've only been making cheese for a few months so I may be jumping into the deep end on this one.

I have been talking to the guys at Neal's Yard in London, one of them mentioned the rubbing of rind from one cheese to another. I'm going to keep it simple for now though, maybe next year Ill be ready for that!

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion..

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 02:02:01 PM »
Rubbing rinds is how "uncultured" cheeses reproduce. >:D
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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2010, 05:15:33 AM »
Hummm...I'm just guessing here, but I would say that you put your chopped up rind in some milk, raise it to the proper temperature (look at a recipe to see what they say,) and let it sit over night. Also, try washing the one cheese with B. Linens on the surface, with salt water.  Then, without rinsing your hands, wipe the "slime" on to the uninnoculated cheese.  The B.Linens should spread from the first cheese to the second.  I think that's how the monks did it in the olden days.  If it's good cheese, one of these methods should work...maybe...I hope...I hope.   ::)

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Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Rinds, Using To Propagate Cultures Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2010, 09:37:25 AM »
The thing about the b. linens is that it apparently doesn't like to grow on cheese that is too acidic. I have learned this the hard way. I made a muenster and a reblochon but didn't use a yeast in the mix. The yeast neutralizes the surface so that the b. linens has a hospitable place to grow, and when the yeast dies, it provides food for the b. linens. Without it, I have gotten 2 cream colored batches of cheese.

So here's a snag in the rind-rubbing theory: the yeast that makes the b. linens flourish is dead and eaten by the time the cheese is mature, right? So that's one culture that won't make it to the recipient cheese, and without it, the b. linens won't grow either.

I think for this to work, you need to have a viable "base cheese" with the bare necessities to ripen itself, then you can add additional cultures by rubbing, washing, or other kinds of cheese "hanky-panky"  ;)

So if I wanted to steal cultures from a reblochon, I'd make a cheese with a commercial meso starter, yeast, and probably the geo also. Then when it came time to wash, wash the mature cheese first, then the new batch to transfer the bacteria.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.