Author Topic: Mark's Reblochon - 062610  (Read 1268 times)

Offline MarkShelton

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Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« on: June 29, 2010, 08:23:47 AM »
This was the second cheese of my long cheese weekend. Like the parmesan, I added to the culture mix. My last batch was devoid of KL71 yeast, and I think the cheese suffered greatly due to that fact. Though it may have been premature, I kicked them out of my ripening boxes and exiled them to cellophane wrappers in my cooler fridge, henceforth to be known as simply "cheese"

My new reblochons were made with both the KL71 and b. linens added directly to the milk; added insurance for the b. linens to take hold as it is in the make and the brine. It was actually quite a bit of culture that was added. I measured out all the cultures into a SS sauce cup and it looked like a lot to me at least. I followed the same procedure as last time. Here are the details:
  • 3gal raw milk + 3 quarts raw cream from the batch of parmesan earlier.
  • 3/16 tsp MM100, 1/16 tsp TA061, 1/8 tsp KL71, 1/10 tsp Geo17, 1/32 tsp b. linens (LR)
  • 1/2 vegetable rennet tablet produced a floc point of 18 min, 2X multiplier.
  • Dry rubbed salt @ 1.5% the weight of the cheese
  • Each cheese came out within an ounce or 2 of 1lb
Right now they've had 2 brine washings the past 2 days. I plan to wash 4 straight days, then every other day for a while and gradually go down from there. Perhaps wash with some sweet Alsacian wine later in ripening and maybe a dusting of p. canadidum. I can definitely smell the yeast coming on; it has a wonderful smell of fermentation, though I sort of miss the smell of raw meat that is being overpowered.

One question (so far), should I increase the floc multiplier? I seem to be losing quite a bit of milkfat into the whey as I cut the curd. A larger multiplier will firm up the curds a bit more before cutting, and they will retain more of the fat, but I don't want to mess with the reblochon style by messing up the acidification of the cheese.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.


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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 11:44:13 AM »
For me, a long floc time (over 15 minutes) always results in a weaker curd. I would increase your rennet and get the floc time down to 10-12 minutes.
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Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 06:12:27 PM »
I always worry about adding too much rennet, and the cheese coming out bitter. Especially since this is a cheese that ages for a long time and the fact that I've heard that the veg and microbial rennet are more prone to bitterness. While 18 min is at the upper limit of acceptable for me, ideally, it would be 13 min or thereabouts. Raw milk is still a little new for me, so I'm still getting things worked out with it.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 08:52:51 PM »
That's why we do floc times, so we know how the milk and rennet are interacting. 18 minutes is just too long. Rennet is an enzyme and contributes to proteolysis so it's important to use the right amount or the cheese may not develop it's full potential.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 09:30:28 PM »
Guys, I've noticed an interesting dynamic. I agree that when I use a normal amount of rennet (~9 ml single strength per 100 lbs milk), if I get a long time to floc, my curd sets weaker, and I need to add CaCl2 and/or more rennet to try and get that 10-12 min floc. But I've also noticed that if I use my normal rennet schedule and the curd sets in 10-12 minutes, meaning I have ideal milk, that if I decrease the rennet amount to about 7 ml per 100 lbs, which increases the time to floc to 15-18 mins, I get better cheese. More rounded notes, just a touch smoother.

It's like with higher quality milk, like sheep milk or heritage breed cow milk, you can use less rennet. I suspect that more casein content in the milk makes for a firmer initial set, which then retains residual rennet better. And with more watery milk, like Holstein, using more rennet doesn't have an adverse effect because the curd is weaker and the rennet is expelled more readily. So maybe the net retained rennet winds up being the same?

Thoughts? This has just been my own experience, haven't looked into the literature about it. Haven't read anything about the amount of retained rennet based on time to initial gel as it is related to PF ratio or just SNF.
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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 11:28:39 PM »
Interesting concept - retained rennet. Seems difficult to quantify and more difficult to plan for in advance.

I always need less rennet with raw Jersey. I assumed that was because of the free (non-homogenized) butterfat. Milks with less free butterfat seem to require more rennet. Again, I assumed that higher free butterfat just produces a stronger casein matrix.

Guidelines??? for 3 examples

Milk A = Raw Jersey (GREAT milk) - back off on the renett and extend floc to 15-18 minutes because the strong casein matrix is going to retain more rennet for proteolysis. No Cacl2 needed.

Milk B (Normal) = Low temp pasteurized, non-homogenized Holstein - regular rennet regimine with 10-12 minute floc and average rennet retention. Some CaCl2 is usually called for.

Milk C = Pasteurized/homogenized store bought blend - a little extra rennet to bring floc to 8-10 minutes and strengthen curd with low rennet retention. Full dose of CaCl2 is always called for.

The "retained" rennet is the same in all 3 cases. ??? This also seems relative to the amount of free butterfat. So in Marks case he skimmed off 3 quarts of cream. Seems like that would put the rennet requirement back to the Milk B category for a skimmed Parmesan because of the lower free butterfat.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 11:49:26 PM »
I've been struggling to quantify this idea. I don't even know if it's valid because I haven't measured curd for leftover rennet quantities in the cases you mentioned. Just anecdotal experience.

I've had other cheesemakers tell me, though, that they use less rennet with high protein and/or high fat milk. Like when using Nigerian goat or E Fresian sheep or water buffalo milk. Their reasoning is that when they used the normal amounts, the flavor just wasn't as good. Not terrible, just not fantastic.

Maybe let's think through what current science tells us about the enzyme behavior. We know that the specific enzymes cleave specific amino acid portions in caseins. And we know that the same enzyme produced from different sources (aspergillus rennin vs m mihei rennin, etc) cleaves slightly different areas in the amino acid chain. This is especially true of beta caseins, which have a bitter C terminal that is hydrophobic. It is also true for as1 and as2 caseins, especially noticeable when comparing synthetic rennin vs animal rennet with pepsin... they cleave different spots in the amino acid chains that make up the casein proteins.  We also know that rennin is left in the curd and continues acting on the caseins.

So if all that is true, then more rennin would contribute to faster proteolysis, and the limiting factor would be not the rennin, but the proteases, peptidases, and general catabolysis in all its variants that happens in cheese. With faster rennin-induced proteolysis, there would be more bitterness.

My thought is that if rennet is the leading contributor of bitterness (a major if, it could also be lots of other things, including cold-loving bacteria or bacteria that survive pasteurization, or just the strain of meso culture), then the amount of rennet left would be a significant indicator and possibly even predictor of bitterness. And if the curd strength determines the ability of the linked caseins to retain macromolecules like rennet and like fats, then a stronger curd should result in greater retained rennet. Right? Is that reasonable? Is it true?

For me this whole discussion boils down to a few practical rules of thumb I've been following, which I already explained. I borrowed the idea from European cheeses. For really great milk that's fresh, proper browse and lactation cycle, target a longer time to floc, 15-18 minutes. For offmilk or milk that sets in a weak curd, try to get a time to floc that's closer to a standard 10-12 mins.

If anyone has some taste comparisons to share, I'd be really interested in learning more. Does anyone else adjust rennet amounts slightly? Why? Under what circumstances?

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Maybe I should start a new one?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 11:58:32 PM by linuxboy »
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2010, 07:23:56 AM »
No, this thread is fine. These are very interesting points/hypothesises/ponderings and I welcome them. Partly due to the fact that when I come back to this thread to review it for my next batch, this will still be pertinent for me. I don't want you to feel like I'm holding your thoughts ransom in my thread, though, so feel free to create a new thread if you'd like.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.

Offline mtncheesemaker(Pam)

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2010, 09:32:32 AM »
Mark;
Just curious: what was your yield from this make?
Thanks,
Pam

Offline MarkShelton

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Re: Mark's Reblochon - 062610
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2010, 07:33:42 PM »
I got 4 wheels, nearly identical at 1 lb each. They are 5.25" rounds, ~1.25" tall.
I am constantly in awe of the very first people that consumed these things, despite how funky looking and smelling they had become.


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