Author Topic: Questions On PH and Cultures  (Read 3031 times)

Offline woodsman

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2010, 12:57:58 PM »
I buy bulk rennet from a local diary. They sell it at 1.5 USD an ounce and bring it out in little plastic container. I draw the rennet into a 35 ml syringe because it's so much safer to store it in the fridge, than a little flimsy cup which I tipped a few times and it leaked. It's also very convenient to dose the rennet having a calibrated syringe and no measuring spoons to clean and sanitize either.


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Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2010, 01:10:19 PM »
I would keep it refridgerated and sealed.  I might suggest getting a vial or something dedicated to storing what you get.  1.5oz is about 44 ml, so a 100ml vial would work well.

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Offline clherestian

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 01:41:06 PM »
I haven't found a way to measure the volume of liquid rennet precisely. I have been weighing it with a 1/100 gram scale. Is that valid?

Offline woodsman

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 01:58:05 PM »
I would keep it refridgerated and sealed.  I might suggest getting a vial or something dedicated to storing what you get.  1.5oz is about 44 ml, so a 100ml vial would work well.

Here is one....


But isn't it sealed in a syringe?

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 02:16:10 PM »
mostly, I guess.
 
But In my head, I had this image of a dripping syringe.

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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 03:13:29 PM »
Interesting choice of cultures. I think this will be a different cheese altogether keep us posted. I need to find the orginal post I believe I make this with Meso aromatic (type B).

Offline Mr. Kim

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 01:01:00 PM »
I chose the Florica Danica because that was what was referenced in the Drunk and Nutty thread for this cheese.  I hope it won't be too different.  Should you find the original recipe I sure would like to have it.
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Offline H.A.M.

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 01:21:56 PM »
Meso aromatic type B and Flora Danica have the same bacteria types. Ratios of each might be different, not sure on that. Based on culture choice alone, it should be a similar cheese.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2010, 05:06:04 PM »
They are close enough not to be a problem.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2010, 09:02:47 PM »
As pointed out, both cultures include: Lc. lactis, Lc. cremoris, Lc. lactis biovar diacetylactis, and Leuc. m. cremoris,  but in different (unknown) proportions. However Flora Danica also contains maltodextrin - an artificial sweetener with thickening properties.

Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide, which qualifies it as an alternative sweetener to sucrose or fructose. Maltodextrin can be enzymatically derived from any starch. In the US, this starch is usually corn or potatoes; in Europe, it is commonly wheat. It is often used in combination with other additives to form a sweet coating for fried snack foods such as corn chips and potato chips.  Although rarely marketed by itself, maltodextrin can often be found as an ingredient in a number of other artificial sweetener blends such as Splenda.

So unless you want artificial sugar in your Gouda, Flora Danica is a very poor choice for hard cheeses. It is much more appropriate (but not necessary) for French cream cheese, Mascarpone, etc. If using FD as an alternative culture, it is important to understand that a part of the bulk is the maltodextrin, so you will have to use more to get an equivalent dose of the starter bacteria.

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Offline Mr. Kim

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2010, 07:45:01 AM »
Sailor, so that I understand, does the maltodextrin replicate itself like the Flora Danica culture then, or will the 1/4 tsp that I used in the recipe remain the 1/4 tsp?  All this is very confusing. 

Thanks for your insights.
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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2010, 09:26:33 AM »
The maltodextrin (MD) does not replicate. The exact proportions are unknown, but for discussion sake assume that 50% of the Flora Danica (FD) is composed of the starter bacteria and 50% is the MD. That means that if you use 1/4 tsp of FD then you are really only using 1/8 tsp of starter bacteria and 1/8 tsp of MD.

In a lactic coagulated cheese like Mascarpone or cream cheese, that's not a big deal. The bacteria will just continue to replicate overnight until you get the desired "set". In a hard cheese, that's a completely different story. Now you want a starter mix that is going to produce lactic acid more quickly so you can reach the desired pH targets along the way. If the starter is too weak, the finished cheese will never reach it's potential.

So how much more FD to add to compensate for the bulk MD? Best way to figure that out is to use a pH meter and see what's going on throughout a make. But... as I said, FD is not a good choice for hard cheeses. ;)
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Offline Mr. Kim

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2010, 10:16:16 AM »
Thanks Sailor, I think I am understanding.  When I was looking for my PH marks I felt that they were not responding properly according to the times that I allowed to set.  It seemed that if I wanted to drain at 6.1 I would have had to wait another hour or so.  Typically at drain I am finding that I am at 6.25 to 6.35 depending on the batch.  This would indicate that I need to use more culture in the beginning, yes?
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2010, 10:56:11 AM »
Sailor, it's a little bit more complex than that. Maltodextrins are added as lyoprotectants. Meaning when cells are freeze dried, there is a great chance that they will be damaged because first the slurry is frozen and then water is removed during lyophilization. What happens is that the outer cell wall is composed of proteins, and when they are stressed like that, they can aggregate together or unfold, causing cell death and decreasing viability. To aid in the percentage of viable cells when reconstituting, one practice that is used is employing lyoprotectants such as maltodextrins.

Maltodextrins are starches that have been partially hydrolyzed. What happens chemically is that they can then form hydrogen bonds with proteins. When that bonding happens it dramatically stabilizes the cell wall and prevents it from being damaged during lyophilization.

Typically, it's not 50%. It's more like 4-15% by weight. That's about all you need to have a good outcome. It depends on the cell concentration. Higher cell density needs more lyoprotectant.

IMHO, maltodextrin plays a very negligible role in final cheese texture. Acid development and milk quality and culture selection play a larger part.

Also, I remember reading something on Ricki's site about the role of maltodextrins and how they're preferentially consumed by bacteria upon rehydration and how bacteria need the maltodextrins after "waking up". This is not true, it takes more work for the cell to consume them; lactic bacteria have a preference for lactose. They use their inner cell reserves in the first 5-10 minutes upon rehydrating and coming out of a dormant phase. That's one of the reasons there's a lag phase in bacterial reproduction.
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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Questions On PH and Cultures
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2010, 12:26:17 PM »
I was trying to keep it simple. ;)

I have not seen MD listed as an ingredient with Aromatic B. Just from experience, FD seems to be a much slower acidifier than Aromatic B, even though they have the same bacteria mix. Just seems to take longer to start getting a pH drop. That's why from a practical standpoint, I have considered FD to be for slow overnight coagulation. Perhaps the hydrogen bond with the MD proteins makes it take longer to "wake up" the Flora Danica because of a difference in the bacteria ratios. In other words, maybe FD has a higher proportion of Leuc. m. cremoris that results in a stronger bond to that particular protein. This could be a distinction between dominant rods vs cocci or it could be observed in a gram stain reaction. All of these are gram positive, but a stronger gram stain indicates that the cell wall is more permeable and maybe more receptive to the hydrogen bond with MD. Probably why they use it in the first place - to protect the fragile cell wall.

BTW - I'm sure you have noticed the very old taxonomy that Ricki is still using on her website. Not good when trying to educate cheesemakers. :P

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