crottin issues

[Chris_Abrahamson]

Hello everyone -

I attempted to make crottin following Tim Smith's recipe and ran into a number of probems.  (Hindsight being 20/20 - I wish I had read through the forum threads before I started them last month)

1)  The recipe calls from direct placement of the curd into the moulds which result in a very lengthly draining process (18-20 hours).  It appears that in reading past posts that the concensus is to pre-drain the curd before placing into the moulds.   Has anyone tried this method with better results?

2)  After 3 days in the ripening box ( 52 F 85% RH), a fine white mold was developing on the surface which by the 7th day started displaying oidium / toad skin.  After three weeks, I ended up with a heavy wrinkled skin, a thin layer of "cream" and chalky white body that slightly bitter tasting.  Not at all as I had expected!

So for my next attempt, I am going to at least pre-drain the curds before moulding.  But I'm not sure if I fully understand how oidium occurs and it ow prevents the development of penicillium surface spores.  I have read that it can be caused by:

1) excessive moisture of the moulded curd ( hopefully pre-draining will help)
2) too high of ripening temperature
3) insufficient salt applied to surface ( is there a rule of thumb as to too much salt should be applied to a certain area or volume?)

Is there anything that I'm missing?

Thanks

Chris

[linuxboy]

1)  The recipe calls from direct placement of the curd into the moulds which result in a very lengthly draining process (18-20 hours).  It appears that in reading past posts that the concensus is to pre-drain the curd before placing into the moulds.   Has anyone tried this method with better results?

Many fresh goat cheeses I make or have seen made use pre-drained and homogenized curd that is pushed pneumatically through a tube, and then small buttons are cut as the formed curd comes out. It's like taking a tube cake decorator, pushing the curd through it, and cutting small rounds as the curd cylinder exits. It's tough to get the final moisture content exactly right draining individually. Crottins are easier when predrained.

2)  After 3 days in the ripening box ( 52 F 85% RH), a fine white mold was developing on the surface which by the 7th day started displaying oidium / toad skin.  After three weeks, I ended up with a heavy wrinkled skin, a thin layer of "cream" and chalky white body that slightly bitter tasting.  Not at all as I had expected!

What was your mold culture? And what ratios?

So for my next attempt, I am going to at least pre-drain the curds before moulding.  But I'm not sure if I fully understand how oidium occurs and it ow prevents the development of penicillium surface spores.  I have read that it can be caused by:

1) excessive moisture of the moulded curd ( hopefully pre-draining will help)
2) too high of ripening temperature
3) insufficient salt applied to surface ( is there a rule of thumb as to too much salt should be applied to a certain area or volume?)

Oidium is just the old name for the yeast form of Geo. Used to be called Oidium lactis. It occurs likely because you added it or naturally. If you added it, it was either the wrong form or the wrong amount or salt content was off. above 3-4% Geo does not survive well, but P candidum does.

Read past threads here on slip skin. I've covered its causes and prevention before. But you got the gist of it already. Surface not dry enough post demolding, temp too high, oxygen too low, humidity too high (needs to be 90% for first ~5 days then as you  get p candidum spores, need to up the humidity, and up the oxygen to make sure it grows. Then 7-10 days you'll get complete coverage, then put in the fridge for ripening or eat after 2-3 weeks.

Is there anything that I'm missing?

In terms of? Do you just want to know how to avoid slip skin?

[FRANCOIS]

You are pretty much right on with the causes.  i would suggest a brine soak insteaad of dry salting though.  The only thing I dry salt is chev.  Just a 10 minute dunk in saturated brine should be sufficient for a crottin.  Dry it off well and get some air moving aroudn the cheese to reduce your toad skin.

[linuxboy]

If it's really wet, put a fan on the batch to dry up the surface. I've done that before when I missed the moisture targets a little.

[DeejayDebi]

I think my first croutins where from Tims book and I had the same problem. He doesn't say to pre drain and it tooks DAYS! I did peal off the toad skin and it grew back a new rind. The inside was tasty but the rind is icky! IMHO.
So far I haven't liked the rind on any of those French cheeses.

[Chris_Abrahamson]

Thank you for all the advise.  I found DeejayDebi's original thread and read through those suggestions prior to attempting my next batch

linuxboy:  The mold cultures I used were:
 Choozit GEO 17 Geotrichum candi   1/32 tsp
 Choozit PC SAM 3 Penicillilum candi  1/8 tsp
 So a 4:1 ratio - and quantities were for 2 gallons pasteurized goats milk

In using these mold cultures, is incorporating them directly into the milk the best method?  If the goal is develop a rind ripened cheese, wouldn't it be better to spray them on the surface after moulding?

If I used this approach, would I salt or brine first and then use a mister for mold application/

Thanks

[DeejayDebi]

I have done it both ways and it works well either way. The b.linens seem to works best for me when I spray and wrap in freezer paper for some reason.

[iratherfly]

Frankly, I fond that crottins are so delicate during draining and their first few days that it's a bit difficult to dunk them into brine.

I salt them with 2.5% - 3% of their body weight. It seems like a lot but much of it comes out during whey and moisture extraction. It is enough to start the osmosis, deter pathogens, flavor the cheese and help drain it quicker.

I am not a fan of pre-draining. I put it in chevre molds, wait 18 to 24 hours to drain, then turn the molds up side down onto a draining mat and continue for another day. I don't disturb it. I like the acidity buildup, but if I want less acidification I just move this process to the cave which is much cooler. Only when the cheese is firm enough and loose enough to fall out of the molds (36-48 hours) I take it out, salt it on the draining mat and let the salt do its drainage work. I turn it again 12 hours later and then it's time to go to the cave in the covered container. In the first 2-3 days I leave a large enough gap in the lid for air, otherwise humidity will be 100%. As the cheese releases less and less moisture, I close the lid further. At around day 5-7 the geo shows up (creamy yellowy) followed by the PC a day or two later.

As for your culture list:
- I think that Geo and PC should be the same amount. I know Tim Smith's recipe asks for a pinch of Geo and 1/8 teaspoon PC but my rule of thumb is that 1/8 teaspoon per gallon is the minimum amount I put in for any culture to work (Except Lipase where I go 1/16). Note that you made TWO GALLONS and Tim Smith's recipe calls for these quantities per ONE gallon.
- I see that you and a bunch of others have lately been using this strange SAM3 PC. I really need to get to the bottom of this. Why do people buy this bizarre strain of anti-mucor PC and not just use the classic and stable PC-VS?
- What did you use as starter?
- What kind of rennet did you use (can be related to the bitter flavor you mentioned)

I think that you were right when you said high temp/humidity were the probe of your results. I also think that there wasn't enough balance between the Geo and PC.

My 5 cents only (I make quite a bit Crottins). Fancois, Alex and Linuxboy really know their stuff when it comes to these.

Crottin is a very liberal cheese and there is more than a single way to making it. If this method doesn't work, try someone else's recipe. This shouldn't take you more than 2-3 tries to get perfect.

[Chris_Abrahamson]

Thank you for your feedback

The starter was a prepared mother meso culture was from NECM and I suspect it may be MA 011 as they identify the ingredients as s. lactis, s. cremoris, and malto dextrin.

The PC was also from NECM and their catalog site does not identify strain.  Only after receiving it did I receive the tech spec sheet.

Rennet - doulbe strength vegtable also from NECM

Based on all of your comments and others on this site, I think I'm going to switch over to Dairy Connection for future purchases.

It looks like the weather is finally going to cool off this coming weekend, so I'm planning to try another batch of crottin.

[iratherfly]

Good luck! I actually have a package from them full of stuff that doesn't appear on their website waiting for me downstairs... going to make my crazy blue goat's semi lactic invention. Trying 9 strains of blue until I figure out which one is best for this cheese texture and flavor. This should be fun