Author Topic: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question  (Read 4856 times)

blackthorn

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To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« on: September 16, 2010, 10:19:47 AM »
Hi all  :)
Well after a lot of work (and I mean a lot......4 years of a lot LOL) we're finally a licensed cheese making facility (we also milk our own sheep in our dairy...but that's another story!), I've just being making small amounts of soft cheese whilst I work the kinks out of my very old and very grumpy pasteuriser (anyone have a good swiss name for him? He originated from Switzerland...many years ago), now we've negotiated a truce and I'm ready to start making some harder cheeses (mainly tomme and maybe the odd alpine style), I like kadova molds, I really like the no cheese cloth part (what can I say? Me and cheese cloth make weird looking cheeses together..), they stack and they make nice shapes too, the downside is of course the price, but I think I could deal with that if I thought they would last a really, really long time. I'm looking at the 4.5-5 kg size, can anyone tell me the good and bad points they've had from there own personal experience? Warped liners? I'm stil undecided.
Looking forward to everyone's input  ;)
Vanessa
Thistledown creamery 

wharris

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 12:58:27 PM »
Well  congratulations on becoming licensed. That is my goal as well.

I personally like the kadova moulds.  To me, the shape of them create a great rind and I like the overall look and feel of the resulting cheese.

Stephan

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 08:49:36 PM »
Hi Vanessa,
Regarding the Kadova (4/5 kg Gouda) moulds:

the downside
you’re right, they are expensive
the lid net does not come off easily (for cleaning purposes)
the nets shrink when cleaned at too high temperatures / Cleaning temperature maximized at 55 degrees Celsius
the nets are vulnerable parts and should be treated carefully

the upside
the moulds assure a nice cheese shape
they create a firm rind, overall consistent, not too thick, not too dry
smooth surface, no wrinkles (easy to coat) less chance for mold forming
the mould and lid part are durable products
it is a flexible system, the draining and rind forming characteristics work for many different cheese types
the 4/5 kg is not stackable (others are, like the Gouda 1 kgs)

In my previous position as Kadova Sales Manager I met cheese makers that had used their Kadova moulds once a day, for more than 15 years. After that the mould and lid parts become brittle and break easily when they fall and hit the ground.
Nets, when used once a day and depending on the cleaning methods, can last for approx. 5 – 7 years.

Of course this information is based on what some cheese makers achieved when working with Kadova moulds. Of course some managed to break parts within a three year time frame….

Good luck with your licensed cheese making business and with the cloth / kadova decision!

Stephan

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 05:22:09 AM »
Stephan - In my experience, as well as several others here, there are certain cheeses that stick like crazy to the Kadova nets. This is very apparent and repeatable with cheeses that experience a rapid pH drop after hooping, especially Alpines and thermophiles. In other discussions we have even talked about various remedies and/or preventions. Has this been your experience? If so what do you recommend to prevent sticking?

Stephan

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 02:44:57 PM »
Sailor,
Kadova nets may stick to the cheese for several reasons, and in many cases it’s a combination of different issues that makes cheese stick.

To name a few:
New nets are clean and not flexible. Plus they are not yet “greasy” from the whey etc. By immersing them in whey for a day or two they become greasy and will not stick when pressing for the first time.

First step in the pressing program is too high. Lower the pressure or before pressing embed a resting step” of approx. 10 minutes to let the curd cool down a little bit.

Nets cleaned (too) thoroughly (with lye/caustic soda) taking away the “grease layer” on the mesh, causing a similar situation as with “new nets”. Clean less aggressively and the nets will be less vulnerable for sticking..

Mould and lid nets do shrink over time. They have no support anymore from the mould / lid wall and curd is pressed through the mesh.

Temperature in the cheese production area is too high.

To find the solution for a sticking problem the general advise is, unfortunately (!) trial and error.
It is impossible to give an answer to “why is my cheese sticking to the net” it depends on so many small but critical elements in the cheese making process.
Try to find the right process parameters for your type of milk, for your cheese type and for your steps in the cheese making process by looking carefully at each step.


Stephan

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 12:50:48 AM »
So, if the goal is to keep the nets "greasy" from the whey and not over clean them, what is the recommended cleaning protocol?

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 05:29:29 AM »
I find just dipping them in the whey after cutting the curds and then just before adding the curds works well.

First pressing is too heavy and/or curds to warm for the amount of pressure applied.  It melts the curds into the lining. I think this is one of the biggest reason for sticking curds.

Offline Boofer

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 06:39:32 AM »
I find just dipping them in the whey after cutting the curds and then just before adding the curds works well.

First pressing is too heavy and/or curds to warm for the amount of pressure applied.  It melts the curds into the lining. I think this is one of the biggest reason for sticking curds.
So we might not want to lightly press under warm whey with Kadovas?

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 03:15:18 PM »
I find that the worst sticking happens with thermophilic Alpines. With these the pH doesn't really start dropping until well into pressing. Even after lighter pressing and flipping several times, these can still really stick on a final overnight pressing. I too dip in whey, etc, etc and they often still stick. We have covered this several times in other threads, but I spray with an acidic solution with added calcium. Solved the problem but I'm sure the pros don't do that.

cdonaghe

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 12:56:04 PM »
But Sailor,
   You are a pro now ;D

Charles

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 03:21:33 PM »
I'm "legal", but it will be many years before I'm really a pro. Still have lots to learn.

I can tell you one observation. I used to put everything in the dishwasher at sanitizing temps. In retrospect, that is not a good idea with Kadovas. In fact, I believe their spec sheets suggests a maximum of 120F or so. Higher temps probably causes the nets to shrink a little and directly contributes to sticking. The nets really need to lay flat on the mold itself or curd will push thru and stick big time.

So my question was (and still is) about the proper washing and sanitizing protocol recommended by the manufacturer. How do the "other" pros wash Kadovas? Being a pro now means I can't do things just because it sounds like a good idea. I have to establish and document procedures for my inspector. He would probably freak out if I told him that I keep Kadova nets soaking in whey and then not sanitize them somehow. "IF" that is what the manufacturer recommends, I will have to document that.

Spoons

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 11:33:12 PM »
I'd be glad to answer that Sailor... if you're willing to wait a decade or so  ;)

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 12:32:49 AM »
I believe Francous said they used some sort of acid? solution. Sorry I Don't remmeber what is was and couldn't find the thread.

FRANCOIS

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 03:17:43 AM »
For the record I think everyone here knows I hate Kadova's for non-commercial applications.  At my own cheese company I despised them and switched back to clothes after a few years.  In our commercial operation here though we have quite a few.  Sticking isn't an issue because, frankly, it takes quite a long time to get curd from the vat and into a hoop so the pH is pretty low.  This is , in my experience, the biggest problem with net sticking.  the pH is too high and the curd is not skinned enough.   

We clean them with your typical caustic boil then acid rinse.  It's probably not recommended by Kadova but then again we can't risk product safety and every batch of cheese is tested for the full gamut.  I think we spent almost $3 million last year on micro-testing alone.

Stephan

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Re: To Kadova or not to Kadova.......that is the question
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 08:27:40 AM »
I'm "legal", but it will be many years before I'm really a pro. Still have lots to learn.

I can tell you one observation. I used to put everything in the dishwasher at sanitizing temps. In retrospect, that is not a good idea with Kadovas. In fact, I believe their spec sheets suggests a maximum of 120F or so. Higher temps probably causes the nets to shrink a little and directly contributes to sticking. The nets really need to lay flat on the mold itself or curd will push thru and stick big time.

So my question was (and still is) about the proper washing and sanitizing protocol recommended by the manufacturer. How do the "other" pros wash Kadovas? Being a pro now means I can't do things just because it sounds like a good idea. I have to establish and document procedures for my inspector. He would probably freak out if I told him that I keep Kadova nets soaking in whey and then not sanitize them somehow. "IF" that is what the manufacturer recommends, I will have to document that.

Sailor,
Sorry I kept you waiting:

Factory’s recommendation for cleaning the nets: “Use K500, or Safeclean VK2 from Johnson Diversey or P3 mip RM from Henkel Ecolab. These products are based on caustic soda. Use solutions in accordance with the suppliers’ instructions”. Which (usually) means max. 1,5%.

In the mentioned liquids you keep the nets submersed overnight, with a starting temperature of 40°C. No problem that the liquid cools down overnight. Scrub the nets with a brush to get the best result. Always rinse with sufficient tap water.

I don’t know if the K500 product is available in the US, in Holland it is the most commonly used cleaning liquid among small farmstead cheese makers. I expect the others to be available in the US.

Pro's use a cleaning tunnel with several steps using: caustic sody/lye, rinse with water, acid, rinse with water. The liquid is sprayed on the moving parts using high pressure.

Having the nets in whey is only for new "fresh" nets, as soon as they are used a couple of times they are okay.

Francois,

Submersing in acid is done (usually) once a month when scale is showing up on the lid and mould part. Caustic soda/lye will not remove this scale, acid does.

Stephan