Ph in all it's glory

[Cartierusm]

I need some help. I've had a question on my mind since I started making cheese again. PH, in wine making you take a reading at different stages and adjust by either adding one thing or the other to raise or lower PH depending on your reading. So i've emailed some experts and all I got was generic answers.

All my reciepes are from books and nothing mentions when to take PH readings and what to do? If any of you can help I don't need pages of instruction, just something like, take PH reading here if it's this then do this.

Do you ever adjust the PH with acid or bases? or do you just go onto the next task either quicker or slower?

[Tea]

Good morning Cartierusm, I have to admit that I don't fully understand what the different ph levels in cheese making mean, other than understanding the ripening of cultures and bacteria's that produce the final flavours.
Ph in raw milk can be an indicator of how fresh the milk is and whether spoilage bacteria have taken too much of a hold which show up as a higher acidic level.  I know in mead making ph is important for healthy yeast, too low and they starve, so maybe it is a similar process for bacteria surviving, thus the differing final flavour?  Which ones are starved out and which ones are fed, and at what stage in their growth they are halted?

Most of my cheese recipes have a recommended ph level given for curd cutting, when curds have been turned for a certain time, washing curds etc.  But they do state that these are only indicative and may vary.

Michael was discussing the importance of taking ph levels as opposed to "understanding and knowing" the look and feel of the curd.  I know when I make mozz, I am more interested in how the curd behaves over the ph level, where as other recipes advise for you to wait until the cheese reaches a certain ph level before proceeding to the next step.

Some of the recipes that I have posted I have included the ph levels and some I didn't bother to add them, and I think that Cheese Head has included ph levels in the recipes that he posted. 

Not sure that all this will have help you or not.

[Cartierusm]

I've got the book Artisan Farmstead Cheese and it talks extensively about PH. It pretty says it's just an indicator at different stages and you should take and keep the readings. The problem is it makes no sense whatsoever, in wine making you take readings and adjust by adding a base or an acid. This tells you, "after some experience you'll be able to tell by the PH what will probably turn out to be a good cheese" or some BS like that. Well if you can't help what the ph does who cares about taking it? I still have to read the section on actual cheese making and see if during a recipe it says anything else.

As a start it says to take a measurement when you first start, before heating, take a reading when you add your starter or if using direct set then measure when you cut for the first time, take a reading before draining and a reading from the pressed whey.

[wharris]

There are some recipies out there that use pH as a marker, like time or temp, to  move from one phase to another.

I need to study harder to understand what it is i want to achieve with my cheese chemically.  For now, I will plead ignorance and merely use pH readings as way to make a augment my operational consistancy.

[Cartierusm]

Wayne that's pretty much what my books says, so you're right on. As everyone should do until we figure this out is to just keep notes on each batch and the PH at the different stages I mentioned above. That way the experience is still there when we find out what corrective mesaures to take.

[Tea]

Maybe with cheese the only two factors we have that influence ph is time and heat?  Which is where the experience comes into it?  Because my book also says that ph is important especially if you are wanting to go commercial and make a consistant quality of cheese, but then also doesn't explain the why and where for's either.
Frustrating 

[Cartierusm]

What book are you using, Tea?

[Milleens]

Hello,
I'm a professional 2nd generation cheesemaker from Ireland. This is my first post. I don't have a degree in chemistry.

PH . . . well . . . its hard to know exactly where to start. PH is often confused with acidity. A little known fact is that PH stands for 'Power of Hydrogen'. The number of Hydrogen molecules per atom or somesuch.

I guess your not too interested in that end of it though. Your more interested in how and when it applies to you in your cheese making process. There are a number of crucial moments, the first 24 hours after the birth of the cheese. Maybe more but these are key factors I'm aware of colleagues using.

These are when cutting the curd & when brining.

1-When cutting the curd, say an hour after after renneting, some makers will take a pH and then add water to bring it down to the desired level, or leave it to acidify more before draining the curds.

2-When salting/brining, the cheese should be salted at an optimal pH, I think its 5.5 but ain't sure, if you are using a brine it should be of the same pH.

I don't use a pH meter when brining. I know that the cheese will be ready for salting 24hrs after moulding. I know my brine will be at the same pH because I add whey from that making, which is also 24hours old. I don't pH the curds as I feel altering the curd at this point destroys the natural variation in the milk, I like my cheese to reflect the season its made in etc.

I think if you inoculate the cheese the pH would be pretty important.

On your earlier note about having a cellar in which you ripened a range of cheeses, brave. I know people do, I even know makers, distributors & retailers who do. Its not uncommon for one mould to dominate.

Finally, why are you waxing your Cheddar why not have a natural rind. I make a washed rind semi soft cows milk cheese. I'm a rind man. If your waxing humidity doesn't play as big a role. As for controlling the humidity in a fridge, that's a tough one. Cooling reduces humidity, temperature would be a fundamental for me when controlling moisture.

Best of luck with your projects,
Quin

[Tea]

Welcome Quin to the forums, and I think we are going to be picking your brains quite a bit.  Thankyou for the information too.  We were wondering what the ph factor plays in a cheese.  Does is affect the curd and maturing factor, for does it effect the final flavour?  Some cheese seem to require a certain ph level to be achieved before proceeding to the next step, and others it is not so critical?  We are a little confused as to the role that it plays in the overall cheese making process.

Cartierusm the cheese book and I have is "Home Cheesemaking" by Neil and Carole Willman.

[Cartierusm]

SWEEET we have a pro in out midst...Picking brains good..(said like a zombie).

[Milleens]

Thank you for your warm welcome, much appreciated.

So yes pH does play a crucial role in the development of flavour in your cheese. During salting it affects salt absorbsion, if the cheese doesn't reach the right pH before salting its fermentation process won't be the same.

If the curd is a different pH at moulding the cheese will ripen differently, these are variations you can change or just roll with. Why not role with them.

If your making a hard cheese cured for 6months or more then its vital that you keep tabs on your pH, if your making a semi soft then it will change your cheese radically, but how bad. I like the natural variations.

Temperature, humidity and pH all play roles in how your cheese tastes in the end. However there are thousands of other factors that do too.

I know cheese makers that will only make when the moon is in a favorable part of the cycle, I know makers who only make when the animals are grazing, who only make from selected animals milk, who only make with milk of a certain age, at certain times of the year. I know cheese makers who have nervous breakdowns trying to take into account every variable. There are allot.

Though it has to be said that pH, time, temperature and humidity each play a fundamental role..

[Cheese Head]

Quinlan, great to have you here, and thanks for your ideas and information, very good for novices like me.

[Milleens]

I've just been reading an ole book. Cheese and fermented milk foods by Frank Kosikowski (if your quick i think you might be able to find a few 2nd hand copies via google, amazon have two for sale at just $250). A must read if you can find it. It was a book my mother dug deep into when first exploring the world of cheese making (Over 3 decades ago).

Earlier I referred to the pH at brining as being 5.5 I'm sorry I was wrong it was never above 5.2. Secondly I referred to the pH at the time of cutting of the curd, it would ideally be 4.6 (This does vary depending on which type of cheese your making). Now here is the smart part. The reason most don't use pH meters. Please keep in mind the book from which I quote was published in 1970.

"The conventional, indicating type pH meter is of value in checking milk quality but its use has been restricted. For example, only recently has the cottage cheese industry become aware of pH meters as process control instruments.

Various reasons are given for this limited application. The conventional pH meter often is considered too expensive, electrodes are easily broken and awkward to handle, and considerable manipulation and rinsing are required between samples. A more universally expressed reason is that with untrained personnel the machine soon functions improperly. Results become inaccurate, and , even when accurate, their proper interpretation is difficult."

Now here is the thing, I made cheese today, with a little under 500 litres of milk(no phs taken), for the last time this year. I'm a little sad and a little happy. I haven't had a day off since the 26th of January, so its good the cows are dry, its good I'm taking a break. Another part of me is devastated, no milk until the end of January, all my cheese will be eaten within a month or so.

All I can do in the mean time is make plans to be making even better cheese next year. My wife is a vet, so for Christmas this year along which a book about the president elect and some jewelery I'm going to get her a pH meter. After all its the least I can do considering she gave birth to the most handsome little boy six months ago (who by the way has been constantly been making a soft cheese on his bib since ;-)

Finally Cartierusm, Tea & Cheese Head thank you for your positive posts. I really appreciate those.
Best of luck to each of you in your cheese making endeavours,
Q

[Cartierusm]

No problem Quinlan. What's the name of your cheese company and where are you located?

[Milleens]

Milleens Cheese,
http://www.milleenscheese.com
Located on the Steele family farm, on the Beara Peninsula in lovely west Cork, Ireland, Europe.