Author Topic: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay  (Read 15198 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2014, 10:31:31 AM »
Just a data point, doing reblochon today.  Pre-matured milk with both meso (FD) and Thermo (MY800) MC.  Milk came into the vat at pH 6.66.  CacL at 1/4 tsp/gallon, so for 4 gallons milk, 4.9 ml CaCl. 

On adding both MCs (5 ounces each), drop was strong - 6.52, when target is 6.55 for renneting. I renneted immediately. Floc time was 5:30, so this is all going way too fast - renneted on the basis of 75ml/1000 lbs (2.6 ml/4 gallons milk).  Temp is 94F.  I used 1% b.e., so next time I think I'll use less meso MC, and go with the thermo as DVI to see.  Back to the vat....
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 10:45:39 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2014, 02:00:28 PM »
Just a data point, doing reblochon today.  Pre-matured milk with both meso (FD) and Thermo (MY800) MC.  Milk came into the vat at pH 6.66.  CacL at 1/4 tsp/gallon, so for 4 gallons milk, 4.9 ml CaCl. 

On adding both MCs (5 ounces each), drop was strong - 6.52, when target is 6.55 for renneting. I renneted immediately. Floc time was 5:30, so this is all going way too fast - renneted on the basis of 75ml/1000 lbs (2.6 ml/4 gallons milk).  Temp is 94F.  I used 1% b.e., so next time I think I'll use less meso MC, and go with the thermo as DVI to see.  Back to the vat....
Wouldn't this be better suited for the Washed Rind section?

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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2014, 02:03:31 PM »
Boof, it's more about the acid and renneting profile I experienced using two mother cultures, something I've never done before.  As we talked about DVI v. mother cultures above, it's germane.
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2014, 02:14:32 PM »
It just seemed like you were starting a Reblochon thread....

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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2014, 02:18:01 PM »
Nope.  More about a regular way of going about things for all my cheeses.  Until I source (again) good fresh milk, I'm intrigued by inoculating pasteurized with a mother culture, in a prematuration; and with mesos and thermos both going into the make, as discussed above, I think the experience today is germane and, I hope, helpful to others.
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Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2014, 10:10:07 PM »
Pre-matured milk with both meso (FD) and Thermo (MY800) MC. On adding both MCs (5 ounces each), drop was strong - 6.52, when target is 6.55 for renneting. I renneted immediately. Floc time was 5:30, so this is all going way too fast. I used 1% b.e., so next time I think I'll use less meso MC, and go with the thermo as DVI to see.

FWIW, several observations. The Meso FD is a very slow acidifier. The MY800 is actually a Meso/Thermo blend of Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactococcus lactis, and Lactoccus bulgaricus. The Lactococci are both Mesos. The L. lactis can be a fairly rapid acidifier, depending on the strain. Just as important, the FD (Flora danica) also contains L. lactis, so you are double dosing a meso acidifier.

As I said previously, IMHO you should not make MCs from meso/thermo blends. The results are too unpredictable for me. Your inoculation rate was 1% for both the Meso and the blend, so your total inoculation was 2%. IMHO, that is too much when using MCs, especially for a Reblochon. Slow and steady wins the race.

Unless you have a REALLY expensive lab grade pH meter, the difference between 6.52 and 6.55 is statistically irrelevant. Most low to medium grade meters have a margin of error of .05 or more, so don't sweat over a couple of 1/100ths. Your strong initial drop was NOT caused by the action of the bacteria on your 4 gallons of milk. Instead, what you experienced was the acid already produced in the Mother Cultures. That is a very positive reason for using MCs, but also a good reason not to use too much.

Based on the Floc time, your real problem was using WAY too much rennet and that effects the rest of the make and beyond - well into aging.

So, my suggestions remain the same. If you want to use MY800 or any Meso/Thermo blend, don't use a MC approach. Since the FD is redundant for L. lactis, you can just drop that and do the MY800 as DVI. HOWEVER, the FD also contains L. diacetylactis which adds a buttery flavor. So I would do a MC of the meso FD and a MC of the thermo S. themophilus. That leaves the L. bulgaricus. This little guy does not do much for initial acidification but plays a bigger role in aging so it can be added as a DVI adjunct culture.
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2014, 06:11:15 AM »
Thank you, Sailor, generous and helpful as always, and boy did I miss the boat.  Apologies to all, I hope my misguided thinking didn't steer anyone wrong.  It occurs to me I might be running into the same issue on using this method with MA4001, a go-to culture blend I use a lot (I culture it at meso temp). 

At any rate, I knew the quick acidification wasn't due to any ripening in the vat, and presumed the instant drop was due to instant, added acid from the two cultures.  I just couldn't figure out why, given my presumption of thermo for the MY800.  Now I know. :-[  The only thing I might try - just an experiment, knowing it's shortcoming as it's still playing with MC and a blend - is to inoculate with half the amounts of each culture, and see what I end up with in the vat, and with the finished cheese.  But that presumes I would culture up the MY800 in the meso range...whereas it's a blend so...likely a non-starter.  FWIW, I cultured the MY800 up at 110F, presuming it's a thermo.  So would presume I effectively stymied most of the meso culturing, rendering them useless.  All told, quite off, obviously, and thank you, Sailor, for pointing me in thr right direction, again.

The renneting still puzzles me, but as Boof pointed out, I don't want to hijack your thread, Sailor.  I went in at 7.5 ml/100 lbs milk (2.6 milliliters/4 gallons batch milk), the low end of the 7-9ml/100 lbs milk range, so wondering if here, too, I've spaced something. But I can take it up in another thread.  EDIT: 75-90 ml SINGLE STRENGTH rennet per 100 # milk.  That would explain it.....argh! 

I hate using DVI now, and have, since embracing your method so heartily.  But it seems I'm stuck, with some things.  Probably wouldn't be the worst to follow Yoav's recipe to the letter, and that includes DVI.  That, too, is another thread and will pick up there.

Thank you again, Sailor.

Paul

Edit:  It occurs to me - I know the likely answer is no - but given the thermo element of the MY800 is for stability and latter-stage flavor aspects, how would you (Pav, if you're around, as well) feel about doing 1/2 the vat inoculation for each MC, and each MC was ripened not at FD=90F, MY800=110F, but both are ripened at meso temp?  Leaving ST and the bulgaricus to essentially "rest" until woken somewhat more in the vat (at 94F), and in latter stages of affinage?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 12:49:16 PM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2014, 01:46:58 PM »
Quote
FD=90F, MY800=110F,
Should be 80F for FD and 95-98F for MY
Quote
but both are ripened at meso temp?
What does that mean? meso covers a lot of ground.

Quote
Leaving ST and the bulgaricus to essentially "rest" until woken somewhat more in the vat (at 94F),
ST grows reasonably well at mid 80s. LB delbrueckii does need mid 90s. It's a range... thermo and meso are misleading as labels.
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2014, 01:53:31 PM »
Thanks Pav.  I think what I'm trying to do is essentially squeeze the impossible into a loved paradigm.  Using Sailor's recommended meso temp for the MC of 90F, somehow trying to come up with a decent MC of the MY800, as well as the FD, and then inoculate each at, say, 0.5% b.e.  It seems it's not possible, too much complexity in the blend of thermo and meso strains - which squares with what Sailor's been trying to tell this obdurate one all along. 

ps:  do you have a source that talks about the temp optima, or is it just gleaned from wide reading (and a good, clear mind...ahem)?
- Paul

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2014, 02:23:45 PM »
Mostly, I read through all the patent collections of all the culture biotech companies to figure out the strain and specie specifics. And also chatting with industry people. And experiments.  No chart handy.
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2014, 02:27:12 PM »
Shucks, gotcha, Pav.  Can I borrow your brain, then?  I promise I'll give it back mostly unscathed from such gross disturbance to its peace.  ;D
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Offline shotski

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #146 on: February 08, 2014, 11:15:53 AM »
Not sure if this has been covered or not but. I thought I read a formula for using expired liquid rennet ( 1 Year past ) and meso II and meso III. Thanks in advance.

John

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #147 on: February 08, 2014, 05:28:30 PM »
hmm? rennet does not expire. It gradually loses strength until it has no clotting activity left. Not sure what you mean... what kind of formula? to what end?
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Offline jwalker

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #148 on: February 08, 2014, 06:59:55 PM »
Just a data point, doing reblochon today.  Pre-matured milk with both meso (FD) and Thermo (MY800) MC.  Milk came into the vat at pH 6.66.  CacL at 1/4 tsp/gallon, so for 4 gallons milk, 4.9 ml CaCl. 

On adding both MCs (5 ounces each), drop was strong - 6.52, when target is 6.55 for renneting. I renneted immediately. Floc time was 5:30, so this is all going way too fast - renneted on the basis of 75ml/1000 lbs (2.6 ml/4 gallons milk).  Temp is 94F.  I used 1% b.e., so next time I think I'll use less meso MC, and go with the thermo as DVI to see.  Back to the vat....
Wouldn't this be better suited for the Washed Rind section?

-Boofer-

Hmmm ..... I;m glad his wasn't moved to another forum , I have been folowing this thread closely and have learned a lot about  mother cultures .
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Making Mother Cultures - A Photo Essay
« Reply #149 on: February 08, 2014, 08:35:43 PM »
Jwalker, I just hope my inane mishaps didn't screw anyone up...scratching through the dark to re-learn stuff Pav and Sailor once taught.  But thanks for the nod, this is a fantastic thread, agreed. 

Pav, this jogged me to realize I didn't quite answer one of your questions:

Quote
What does that mean? meso covers a lot of ground.

Meaning, I thought to do this:  come in at a prematuration of .1-.15% each for FD cultured up (now, given your optima, doing it at 80), and MY800 cultured up at, say, 96F.  And in the vat, adding in each MC at 0.5% b.e. 

Trying to basically get the meso characteristics of each of these cultures in the milk, using prematuration, as a kind of pastiche of using raw milk, for now; and avoiding my gross overuse, as Sailor pointed out, in the vat of essentially 2% meso. 

I realize this is likely ridiculous, given the fact MY800 is a meso/thermo blend, with all its problems with respect to MCs, also as Sailor has pointed out and as I get (be nice to know what strains I'm using in the cultures I'm selecting :-[).  But this was the thought, as an experiment. 

Lotta words, do I make any sense, what I'm after?  Interestingly, for a cold fridge of say, 39F, Yoav suggested DVI and using about 50% of the vat inoculation in the prematuration, for about 24 hours or so (longer if colder, and shorter - and less prematuration dosing, perhaps 25% or so, only, if warmer, with the balance to be used in the vat). 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 08:42:50 PM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul