Author Topic: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?  (Read 2837 times)

ConnieG

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Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« on: November 01, 2010, 10:10:21 PM »
Made Monterey Jack today and  used a flocc multiplier of 2.5.  - does that seem about right?

Yes, it's a good thing I made a simple cheese today as simple was a challenge.  The recipe online calls for 60 minutes rennenting but I have been moving to flocc markers and so decided to go with that.   The curd set in 13 minutes! (Did I use to much rennet?)  Then the cow got out and had her head stuffed into the rich alfalfa hay and had to be captured before she bloated.  Came back and was alarmed that my curd had cooled drastically and cranked up the stove - no change - it seems the thermometer probe was next to the pot - not actually in it.  ??? Now the curds are at 106.  What can I expect with this high a temp?

Basic flocc question:  when I use the multiplier that is the total time from adding the rennet - not the time from when the bowl stopped spinning, right?

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 10:27:10 PM »
Floc time is TOTAL time. 13 minutes is just fine, but a little less rennet would give a longer floc time and would be better. Monterey Jack is a moist cheese that is not designed to age. As such, I use a muiltiplier of 3.5 for Jacks. Shorter floc multipliers produce softer curds that give off whey quickly when cut. For example, I use 2.5 for Assiago and Parmesan. If I plan on aging the Parmesan for over a year I reduce the floc multiplier to 2 in order to get a nice hard grating style.

106F for how long? A short term spike probably is OK, but 30 minutes might cause more problems. Meso bacteria don't like it over 105F but it is unlikely that you killed them all. Chances are that the vast majority survived. Again, depending on the exposure time, the higher temperature may have accelerated the bacterial growth and corresponding acid production.

FRANCOIS

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 11:15:31 PM »
The few times I've made hard italian cheeses with diplomed master cheesemakers they cut at or just after floculation.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 01:36:57 AM »
Wow. I haven't tried that Francois. I'm surprised that the curd would hold up to cutting right after flocculation.

linuxboy

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 01:42:56 AM »
It holds up when using good milk. And the way those guys did it old school is with the big cutter, can't remember the name. It cuts to pretty large chunks right away, and then you keep cutting and turning it, like yo do a whisk. It takes a good 5-10 mins to finish a vat because of how the motion is, and in that time it's like healing the curd, because it's cut so fine and because it takes a while to get through it. Needless to say, the yield on parm is not the best.

FRANCOIS

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 02:44:26 AM »
0.7-0.8 yield ( pounds per gallon) for parm as opposed to something like chev which is 1.4 pounds per gallon.  I didn't notice the cutting taking too long, but once the curd was skinned and the heat was on I was suprised how aggressively it was stirred.  They used a big curved harp to cut then a wisk to stir/beat.

It is very common when using bulk starter and copious amounts of rennet and calcium to have a very short multiplier.  You will find most commercial stabilised white manufacturers will cut at floculation, or not much after (7-12 minutes).  The curd sets like concrete in their vats so after a short stir it's ready to run.  It's just a completely different animal to making cheese at home where there's a lot of love and attention to detail. 

ConnieG

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 02:08:42 PM »
This has been SO helpful - I have taken notes to refer back to.  I'll also put notes on this cheese so I'll know what happened to it. The curd didn't sit at the high temp for very long and I took the pot off the heat, but in hindsight I think I should have added some cool water to bring the temp into the correct range.

 I'm really starting to understand the reasons behind how flocc works in combination with the size of curd cutting to determine the final cheese.  Learning so much makes it worth having messed up a cheese to understand what is going on. [light bulb here]  Following a recipe precisely may produce a consistently good cheese but it only goes so far in learning the mechanics.   I appreciate you all so much being so patient to help newcomers to cheese making.

linuxboy

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 02:54:25 PM »
Connie, the flocculation approach is preferred to making time-based decisions because the cheese moisture content is one of the core indicators of final cheese quality and character (the other being PF ratio). If you constantly make decisions based on time alone, and use the same time markers every time, your cheeses will have great variability because the milk differs.

The moisture is so important because it helps to determine the rate of catabolism of all sorts of stuff. It determines the rate of proteolysis (for proteins to break up, the availability of water is a key aspect of the rate of reaction), it helps to determine the rate of sugar glycolysis, and it helps to determine all the complex aroma and flavor forming compounds.

Case in point, for cheddar, I think I've mentioned this before. You get a 35% moisture cheddar, and you can have a prize winning cheese in 2-3 years. You get a 37% cheddar, and in 2-3 years, it'll be sharp, with some slight bitter and sulfur notes, but it's won't have that very complex flavor associated with the best cheddars. This is using identical makes, but targetting different moisture content, and a 2-5F difference in cooler temps.

Anyway, the way flocculation works is that it is the longer a milk gel sits after renneting, the stronger it gets, and the more water it tends to retain. And the smaller the curd size, the more surface area there is, and the more whey can be released. The other way you control moisture is by heating the curd and through agitation. So you use all those things in combination to hit a final moisture target.

There's plenty of other info on the technical details of floc and how it works with the two-phase, rennet-induced coagulation, so there's no need to talk about it again, but keep all those things in mind in terms of what you're after is a final moisture target. And you control that by:

- Length of time from renetting to cutting, as determined by floc to take into account milk variability
- Curd size (more curds = more surface area)

And then for rate of whey expulsion and degree of expulsion:
- Agitation (stir/rest schedule. More stirring = more curd collisions = faster syneresis)
- Heat schedule (higher heat = faster syneresis)

Francois, I was trying to get to the point, poorly, that with a grana-type cheese, you do cut it, but to get all the curd bits to be like rice kernels, it does take a little time. And during that time, it's kind of like having an integrated heal in the process. Kind of like for large vats, you start cutting, and by the time you're done cutting, the curds have had a chance to firm up a little.

zenith1

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 07:02:56 PM »
How can I not but agree with these learned individuals! When I have mad Jack cheese I usually use a flocc factor of 3.5-4.0. This is a rather moist cheese that is for the most part consumed at a fairly young age.

ConnieG

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 05:33:50 PM »
Again, this is a great help in figuring out the big picture.  How do you measure the final moisture of a cheese, anyway?

linuxboy

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 12:02:33 AM »
It's the moisture in fat-free basis, MFFB

To get there, you need to figure out the moisture and plug it into the formula. Moisture is determined usually by method 1 (926.08 in the AOAC) or method 2 (948.12 in the AOAC).

Essentially, you dry it out to get rid of all the moisture, and subtract final weight from initial weight.

There are other methods, too. You could use sensors to check in-line moisture as the cheese goes down the conveyor belt.

zenith1

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Re: Flocc time on Monterey Jack?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 01:00:32 PM »
yikes!