Author Topic: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle  (Read 10699 times)

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 09:08:47 AM »
Which Geo? 13? 15? 17?  I suggest Geo 15 or Geo 17.

More importantly, which PC? SAM3? VS? Neige?  I suggest PC VS.

Also, I strongly suggest not to brine this cheese but to hand salt it with kosher salt. Use 2.5% of the cheese's weight in salt. Don't worry about 2.5% looking like too much salt and don't worry that the flakes are large: The flakes will melt and this amount of salt takes in consideration the expulsion of moisture out of the cheese, in which much of the salt will be drained out with the whey in the first 1-3 days.

By the way, did you wrap the cheese? At what point? I don't wrap the cheese until it's done if I use the patting method and an aging container. MUCH better cheese.

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2010, 12:07:43 AM »
Thanks Iratherfly! The only detail on the pack of geo I use says "PC VB LYO 10D" Can I assume if I didnt brine the cheese then I would only be adding Geo to the milk with the culture?  What diferences would hand salting produce as opposed to brine?

I wrapped the cheese on day 11 as per the recipe, one thing I may need to look at the rack the cheese sits on leaves thin 1mm channels in the surface of the cheese and the geo seemes to take to these channels very quickly, perhaps I need a different rack. 

Do you have any reading info on the different strains of Geo you listed?

Thanks again for your help its been great.

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2010, 10:12:19 PM »
You are welcome.

I have actually seen PC VB mentioned here a couple of times before but never used it and couldn't find any data sheets about it anywhere. Do you have one? What made you choose it? There are some difference between PC strains in the speed and agressivness of growth, density and height, the lyposis and proteolytic activity (greatly effect the flavor, texture and aroma of the cheese). They also have different stability and shelf life and some have anti-mucor properties. My favorites are the classic VS and the slightly more aggressive Neige. They are stable and predictable and have lots of character.

I am not sure about your brine question: Did you add Geo to the brine???  The way to make these is to heat up milk -> inoculate the starter, geo and PC at the same time -> wait to acidicy -> add CalCl2 (if needed) -> add rennet -> wait for coagulation -> cut curd as needed -> ladle to hoops -> dry for a day, turning occasionally -> remove from hoops -> hand salt each side ->continue draining in cave at 55F  -> move to aging container 55F/85%-90%RH and bloom, turn daily, pat with hands -> move to refrigeration until ripe, around day 21 -> get a baguette and nice glass of wine, it's time.

If you use the hand patting method there is no reason to wrap. In me experience wrapping invites more trouble than helps. (unless you hand pat with dirty hands  >:D ) Do wrap them though when they are done and seem ripe while they await consumption.

As for brining, tradition is not to brine these. It's not going to kill them, but I do find that it builds a harder rind way too soon for a cheese whose purpose is to bloom the rind by keeping it moist.  The rind is the reason for the entire character of this cheese and a thick rind would slow down the rind bacteria effect on the paste. Some users here like Alex, also have and alternative method whereby they salt the curd in the whey before ladling it into the hoops. Bottom line: do what works best for you. Experiment until you get the best cheese to your liking. You are not bound by any rules to do it this way or another way.

For your questions about Geo, look at page 4 of the following Danisco Choozit catalog: (see PDF attachment below)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 10:23:44 PM by iratherfly »

KosherBaker

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 12:14:09 AM »
Great info, Yoav. Thanks.

linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 01:16:09 AM »
Yoav, PC VB is an old LactoLabo strain, IIRC... from Dange-St-Romain. Don't think I have a spec sheet on it, will look.

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 11:47:39 AM »
The reason for choosing this strain of Geo was mealy due to a lack of range available - I will defiantly be on the hunt for other strains.  I was lucky enough to try some  Fromage D'Affinois double cream the other day, the rind and Geo was that soft it was like eating whipped cream, immediately I wondered how they produced the rind?  You certainly have given me some ideas  ;).

The recipe I use is the same as you have described except i add Geo prior to the rennet as well as a spec to the Brine, I cant wait to dry salt my next batch and see the difference.

thanks for the catalogue


iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2010, 09:04:22 PM »
No problem Bishop.
Yes, rinding is an art for of its own, possibly the most difficult part of affinage and cheesemaking in general. Especially when your imagination is wilder than the rind you are trying to build up (I mean, when imagining a new cheese recipe invention).

I have never heard of geo in the brine. It seems useless to me as 18% salt would kill it before it even hits your cheese.  You can certainly help the rind grow by mixing a 3% salt brine with PC and Geo in a spray bottle and spray the cheese once or twice a day in the first few days (not neccesary) but in 18% salt brine that is actually meant to flavor the cheese, it is just a waste of culture.

Linuxboy - thanks! Can you describe the PC VB? Have you tried it before?  Do you think this is the reason for the high growth of PC in Bishop's 2nd photo? It just looks a bit wild...

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2010, 11:18:04 AM »
Just an update, the below is now 5 and a half weeks old, It was the last one I brined but I have been patting it down daily, just wrapped yesterday as I decided they needed to be in a warmer part of the fridge (container wouldn't fit in the fridge compartment)  ::)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 11:42:21 AM by Bishop »

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2010, 11:24:27 AM »
These ones are only 2 weeks old, I hand salted as recommended and I pat daily, cant wait to cut it and see how it went!  I also broke the golden rule and made a couple of changes in one hit, i cut slightly larger curds and I air dried for 6 hours less.  Cant wait!

Fingers crossed

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2010, 01:50:45 AM »
Wow! These look great! And only in 2 weeks!  Pat them down less often and wait to see some geo (dark yellow) appears from underneath in a few different spots. Should be ready to eat by day 21 to 24 in my opinion. Really great looking

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2010, 03:49:03 AM »
Thanks for the kind words Iratherfly!  Your right to question they were 2 weeks old, I made them on 4/12 so I probably should have said 3 weeks old.  I might cut one tonight, Its Christmas day afternoon right now so I might get away with taking one to a family get together tonight!  I have decided I have been storing them in a fridge that's just too cold so I am just sticking to the wine fridge!

 I'll take your advise on patting them less

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2010, 08:05:31 AM »
Well, did you open it? How was it?

At this stage they are softening and fully bloomed so you should slow them down and move them to cold refrigeration. They will age too quickly now in the wine refrigerator. You don't want the outer paste to turn to ammonia and the inner paste to keep ripe. Slowing it down will now bring the development of the center and the outer paste together gently.

Bishop

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2010, 12:16:10 PM »
Sorry Iratherfly lol,
          I've been very busy eatind, drinking, socialising and sleeping far too much.  I did cut the cheese but didn't take it to dinner, i figured most people have already stuffed themselves over lunch and don't eat much in the evening. 

You will notice a little chunk taken out of the top half on the bottom right side to taste.  I'm very very happy with the way it has turned out!  best one yet! 

I did what you said and gave the patting a rest for 2 days and walla!  Creamy yellow Geo has started to appear on the surface, Its hard to get the photo to show this as it is only just noticeable in person.

I've had a few people at work wondering if I actually made cheese as I have been waiting for one nice enough to show them & not just talk about it, I think this one will be great to take!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:17:07 AM by Bishop »

Brie

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2010, 01:36:08 AM »
I add Geo to the milk, and do not brine, but direct salt after molding. I have followed Yoav's direction to not wrap after white bloom develops; yet rather to pat down the bloom while still at high humidity in the cave. I love this method! Your earlier pics had slip-skin, which is what appears to be the rind coming away from the cheese. The late pics did not have this appearance--interesting what a few more weeks of aging will do.

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste, Soft Outside & Hard Middle
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2010, 09:30:47 AM »
Oh my, oh my! Congrats Bishop, it looks SO good!!! That rind looks perfect. It is probably stable enough to keep ripe for a couple of weeks before it begins to over-ripen. So nice! really happy for you. How's the aroma? Flavor? Texture?