Author Topic: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese  (Read 8371 times)

Offline NimbinValley

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 09:32:03 PM »
Thanks very much.

FD = Flora Danica?

Back to my cheese text books to pull all of what you said together - there are hours of digesting there! 

Thanks for being generous with you knowledge.

I'll keep you posted on how I go.

Paul.

Hi Linuxboy.

I've been getting my adjunct cultures together and doing some research.  They seem to lead to the development of 'umami' flavours through proteolysis.  What I am now interested to know is how people/companies decide which adjuncts to use, which combinations and quantities.  It even gets murkier when I realised that each lactobacillus can have different strains which can result in different flavour profiles.  In terms of commercially available adjuncts (plantarum, helvetica, rhamnosus, paracasei) I guess it is just a matter of trial and error over time to see what flavour profiles develop.  Or is this information already documented somewhere?  Thanks for all of your help.  I have a lot of respect for people who are generous with their knowledge. 

Paul.

linuxboy

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 10:24:54 PM »
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They seem to lead to the development of 'umami' flavours through proteolysis.
This is one small part of the biochemistry, but absolutely, yes. In truth, you can craft the exact flavor of cheese you want by balancing make parameters with strains and their endopeptidases (for most lactobacilli). Even possible to screen for strain characteristics through DNA markers.

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What I am now interested to know is how people/companies decide which adjuncts to use
This part is mostly art, driven by a solid scientific backbone. Isolates are screened for properties that are desirable, then banked, then sometimes enzymes are extracted for a model cheese, or sometimes cheeses undergo prototyping in small form factors. You also have guys like me, and way more geeky than me, who can take a theoretical model based on enzyme types and predict flavor formation for a cheese, or at least predict sensory attributes. It's quite a bit of R&D.

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combinations and quantities
This part is easier. You figure out your cheese attributes in the model cheese, and do predictive/combinatorial analytics given the attribute constraints and the enzymatic reactions. Most often, it falls in a few categories. Backbone for acidification, and enzyme types for texture and flavor. Where it becomes very tough is predicting synergies for flavor balance... and trial and error takes care of that.

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It even gets murkier when I realised that each lactobacillus can have different strains which can result in different flavour profiles.
Doesn't stop there, they can mutate, and you have many co-factors influencing acidification rate and byproduct (therefore flavor) formation. For example, PAB-LAB interactions, or S thermophilus/Helveticus interactions. Basically, waste products from one can feed another, and you get into systems synergies. Moreover, food source and stress factors also influence flavor.

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I guess it is just a matter of trial and error over time to see what flavour profiles develop.
There's quite a bit of that. But there are classic approaches, too, like aduncting DL with a single strain, or adjuncting cheddar with helveticus, or using veggie rennet and adjuncting with helveticus and rhamnosus to help with bitterness control.

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Or is this information already documented somewhere?
Strain-specific details are available from the major houses. For this cheese specifically, I think it is a NIZO culture, or CSK, or related to it. Look up CSK (which you likely can't get where you are), they have flavor formation abstracted in this flavor continuum/wheel concept, and they've tried to use their strains to be like a dial. Want more sweetness? Add .2% specific acidophilus and you're there, want less back tannin in the alpine style? back off on helveticus, adjunct with rhamnosus, age cooler, etc. But the info you're looking for, that edge for exact flavor formation, it's generally not available to small producers. In a business where one single strain can account for a 5 million account or for a new product formulation (like parrano or zola), and where research and insight takes a great deal of money, there is little incentive to share key industry insights like that. The worst for me is when some arrogant jerk tries to blow smoke up my arse and doesn't want to give the most basic answer, like it's all some hidden knowledge.

I think you're on a decent start with what you're doing already. Taste it and see, and then tweak to get the flavor you want. If you taste and can't figure out what to do, post here, we'll help. :)

Offline NimbinValley

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 11:57:22 PM »
Jerks blowing smoke anywhere seems a worry to me...

In the absence of lots of money its lots of trials and lots of notes until something hits the mark.

Thanks.

elkato

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 08:55:44 PM »
Nimbin, I am very interested in your results as I am  doing a sheep milk Gouda and this mid night moon flavor profile sound very appealing, of course sheep milk will be diferent. The dealer for danisco here in Mexico doesn't carry the FLAV series, I might have to get some from the US in my next trip. keep us posted and thanks for sharing

Offline NimbinValley

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 05:41:06 AM »
no worries...get back to me in 6 months and I tell you what has happened.

Wuhanchef

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Re: Midnight Moon Goat's Milk Gouda Style Cheese
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2015, 08:51:08 PM »
no worries...get back to me in 6 months and I tell you what has happened.

I hate to revive an old thread on my first post but seem to be on the same path you were several years ago. Any chance you remember your results? I'd love to hear all about it.

Reading through the entire thread, I'm quite happy to inderstand most of the lingo except DL- checked the glossary and didn't see that there either. Is it just LD (lacto...diacetyl)?