Author Topic: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?  (Read 4576 times)

Cheese Head

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Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« on: November 10, 2010, 12:04:17 PM »
This topic had a short discussion in this Intro Thread and has been I think partially addressed in other Threads, but as it will get buried in that Board and not all our members read the Intro posts, this specific topic is kicked off here.

Question, for lineally scaling rennet coagulated cheese making recipes larger or smaller (normally by amount of milk), how do you scale the amount of rennet and why?

KosherBaker

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 05:28:21 AM »
Well seeing that this hasn't gotten any replies yet I was hoping to continue this discussion as I'd love to see these scaling questions addressed. So I did a search on Scaling of the forum and found one comment by LB on the issue here's a quote:
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Your friend is kind of right. You can't scale it exactly based on teaspoon and similar measurements. But you can scale it exactly if you're adding based on commercial equivalencies of DCU or volume rennet/starter per weight of milk.

And here's a quote of the text he was replying to:
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To add to the conversation, I talked with another local goat cheese maker this morning about scaling up batches, and she mentioned that you cannot increase the culture and rennet at the same rate you increase your batch size.

I'm hoping we can expand on this regarding the rennet and culture amounts (or weights) and salt amount (or weight). Additionally, I believe, the salt curing/brining time is affected by the size of the cheese. So it would be great to have a formula for that as well.

iratherfly

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 07:25:43 AM »
I don't do giant batches but when I scale up the batch I scale up the rennet at the same rate.  I usually do a little less when I scale up vegetable rennet in cow's milk (to prevent bitterness) or when using calf rennet on goats milk (to tone down the lipase sharpness effect and bitterness). That's just a feeling though.

I DO NOT scale the cultures the same way. Cultures have different rules; I refer to their data sheets though they are mostly the same.

linuxboy

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 07:27:43 AM »
I think I've answered this one before in roundabout ways. The gist of it is that it depends on your recipe and what you're trying to do. Across the world, for example, Irish cheddar is made with different rennet amounts than English cheddar, which is different from American cheddar.

For rennet amount, the standard is to use 7-9 ml rennet per 100 lbs milk. You use less rennet with milk that has more solids, like sheep milk. The goal is to hit a specific time to floc target for the cheese. If you always standardize and rennet at the same milk pH by letting the milk ripen, then you can slightly adjust the amount of rennet with the seasons to get to the right time to floc target.

This applies to cultures as well. I've posted my equivalency table before for using bulk starter, Danisco, and CHR Hansen cultures for a .5%, 1%, 1.5%, and 2% equivalent. I'll try to post it here again. Have to find it. I remember answering this question two or three times before, I need to dig through my own posts to find the answers.

Salt by weight is all about hitting a final salt target, which varies for cheese styles. The brine time it takes also varies with not only the surface to volume ratio, but also other factors, such as fat. I do have suggested formulas that help, but they are more confusing that not. A formula using only surface to volume ratios with brine concentration would be overly simplistic and not very helpful. And more accurate formulas require details that most cheesemakers do not have. Modeling the rate of salt uptake over time is not a simplistic linear model.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 04:53:08 PM by linuxboy »

susanky

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 11:40:07 AM »
I have been saving tables and such.  I will attach what I have.  Hopefully this is helpful.  I'd like to give credit where credit is due but I'm not sure whose table this is.  I'll have to start saving them with the name of the author.  I think it was either linuxboy or Sailor.  Sorry if I am wrong....

linuxboy

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 04:31:07 PM »
Sailor's. Here's my chart with DVI/DVS amounts attached.

Also, from a previous thread
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4747.msg36503.html#msg36503
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 04:49:50 PM by linuxboy »

iratherfly

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 05:02:05 PM »
Linuxboy rocks

KosherBaker

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 05:26:33 AM »
Linuxboy rocks
Double Rocks. In fact, you guys just got a nice big juicy wheel of cheese for posting to this thread Yoav, Susan and Pav.
I think I've answered this one before in roundabout ways. The gist of it is that it depends on your recipe and what you're trying to do. Across the world, for example, Irish cheddar is made with different rennet amounts than English cheddar, which is different from American cheddar.
My question would be within the same Cheddar. Let's say I encounter a recipe for an English Cheddar for 1 Gallon of milk. However I want to make a 5 Gallon wheel (or 10 or 20) of the very same English Cheddar, using that very same recipe.
For rennet amount, the standard is to use 7-9 ml rennet per 100 lbs milk.
Would this be at some specific strength/concentration?
You use less rennet with milk that has more solids, like sheep milk.
Would lactation cycle enter into equation here?
The goal is to hit a specific time to floc target for the cheese.
Hmmmm, so is the goal to hit the time target or a pH target? Or are we hitting the time target because pH target is not available? Or is it something else?
If you always standardize and rennet at the same milk pH by letting the milk ripen, then you can slightly adjust the amount of rennet with the seasons to get to the right time to floc target.
I remember you mentioned that you keep logs of this. Would a guideline table be possible with general percentage amounts per month, or at least season, or at whatever granularity the changes occur. I imagine each milk type would require its own table as well, but maybe it doesn't.
By letting the milk ripen, do you mean overnight ripening, or purely to the desired pH?
This applies to cultures as well. I've posted my equivalency table before for using bulk starter, Danisco, and CHR Hansen cultures for a .5%, 1%, 1.5%, and 2% equivalent. I'll try to post it here again. Have to find it. I remember answering this question two or three times before, I need to dig through my own posts to find the answers.
If you have already answered this then I will find it. :)  ;D I'm polishing off the archives for every forum, slowly but surely. :) It looks like you already dug this up. But whatever other info I find on scaling I will add to this thread, so that those who do read the archives can benefit from the info in one convenient thread. :)
Salt by weight is all about hitting a final salt target, which varies for cheese styles.
OK so it sound like salt is a pretty straight forward linear increase. Obviously it has to be by weight as salt by volume makes no sense. :)
The brine time it takes also varies with not only the surface to volume ratio, but also other factors, such as fat. I do have suggested formulas that help, but they are more confusing that not. A formula using only surface to volume ratios with brine concentration would be overly simplistic and not very helpful. And more accurate formulas require details that most cheesemakers do not have. Modeling the rate of salt uptake over time is not a simplistic linear model.
Doh! Doh! and Double Doh! So the only alternative then is to post the question in the appropriate forum for the given wheel/block size?
Needless to say I would love to explore this further, if this has been covered somewhere by someone before, I'll take a link or a reference or a book identification.

Once more huge huge thanks to all of you. Really really awesome stuff.

linuxboy

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 06:45:58 PM »
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My question would be within the same Cheddar. Let's say I encounter a recipe for an English Cheddar for 1 Gallon of milk. However I want to make a 5 Gallon wheel (or 10 or 20) of the very same English Cheddar, using that very same recipe.

Most people out there who write instructions for cheesemaking use "recipes", like you would find in a cookbook. Perhaps rightly so, it makes cheesemaking accessible. But it does not work well for scaling because teaspoon measurements and the like are inexact. In my make howtos, I always try to include the equivalent per hundredweight or liter, and also the bulk equivalent for culture, for easy conversion. Most commercial makes also do the same. For example, Peter Dixon also uses a similar notation. In general, you can ignore the recipe measurements that are meant for the home user and instead use the commercial notation (it's like baking recipes for home vs bakery baking recipes, same idea). To get to the commercial notation for any recipe, start with the premise that you should use 1% or 1.5% bulk equivalent for the culture (by volume), and 7-9 ml 200 IMCU (aka single strength) rennet per 100 lbs milk by weight.

In short, ignore recipes, and figure out the amount of rennet it takes to hit a specific time to floc target. Continental styles, like goudas and tommes have a time to floc of about 15 minutes. American styles have a time to floc of 10-12 minutes. And you adjust your rennet amounts through trial and error to hit those times, starting with about 8 ml/100 lbs milk.

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Would lactation cycle enter into equation here?

Absolutely. It's not only total solids, but also the relative ratio of the solids. Winter milk usually has a lower PF, so the gel is weaker, so you use more rennet, cut to finer pieces, and cook a little hotter. The point of the rennet amount and floc is to hit a final moisture target in the curds, and therefore a final moisture target in the cheese. That's what all this is about.

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Hmmmm, so is the goal to hit the time target or a pH target? Or are we hitting the time target because pH target is not available? Or is it something else?
The goal is to standardize milk and add rennet at the same milk pH every time, for consistency. Target pH is 6.5 for cow, 6.4 for goat, and 6.45 for sheep. This is for most hard cheeses. It's one reason I like bulk culture, you get the pH drop right away and can add rennet almost immediately. You have to balance your pH curve with your cook time and temp. Again, you balance these to get to a final moisture target in the curds.

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Would a guideline table be possible with general percentage amounts per month, or at least season, or at whatever granularity the changes occur. I imagine each milk type would require its own table as well, but maybe it doesn't.
It's up to the cheesemaker. But in general, early lactation has moderate solids and is balanced in PF, mid lactation (aka summer milk) has more protein and less fat, and late lactation has lower PF. In your make you adjust this as I already said, cut smaller and heat higher for late milk, cut normal and heat normal for early milk, and cut normal, but heat lower for summer milk. This is why sticking your hand into the curd is so crucial for cheesemakers and why I keep saying pH is only part of it. You can get drain pH right, brine pH wrong, but hit the moisture target at whey drain, and your cheese will still be mostly the same.

Quote
Doh! Doh! and Double Doh! So the only alternative then is to post the question in the appropriate forum for the given wheel/block size?
Needless to say I would love to explore this further, if this has been covered somewhere by someone before, I'll take a link or a reference or a book identification.
Yes, Pat Fox and/or Paul McSweeney cover it in one of their works. I think maybe in Advanced Dairy Chemistry? One of the grad-level volumes. I'm sure their upcoming encyclopedia of cheese science will have this info as well if you want the latest summary of the research and science. Or ask me. Francois and I had a discussion a while ago on the role of fat in determining salt uptake.

KosherBaker

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 07:00:40 PM »
Awesome awesome awesome stuff. See iratherfly's post above.  ;D :)
Yes, Pat Fox and/or Paul McSweeney cover it in one of their works. I think maybe in Advanced Dairy Chemistry? One of the grad-level volumes. I'm sure their upcoming encyclopedia of cheese science will have this info as well if you want the latest summary of the research and science.
Thanks for the reference will see if I can find it on the web. So Kosikowski does not cover it in his book then? :(
Or ask me.
Well that's a given. :) Just trying to be gentle with your time. :)

linuxboy

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Re: Scaling Rennet Coagulated Cheese Making Recipes - Rennet Amount?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 07:08:27 PM »
Ss much as I love Frank's legacy, work, and scientific mind, he was very practical in his approach to writing and chose to not explain everything in hyper-scientific terms. For example, in his works, he tends to give recipes and practical guidance for what to do in the cheese plant. He wrote before we had this huge surge or artisan cheesemaking. And as a result, his guidance is more like "brine the 15-lb wheel for 32-36 hours in saturated brine". Very useful stuff, but he doesn't exactly go into the nuances of modeling actual salt uptake, determining Aw, predictive modeling of salt uptake curves based on temp, PF, cheese moisture (MNFS), surface-volume ratio, etc. That's kind of geeky stuff, anyway, sort of a figure it out once, create the process for making a cheese, and forget about it. That's why I said above it's not really useful to most cheesemakers to use the formulas.

Short of it, yes, it is covered, but not sure of the depth of info that you want. McSweeney and Fox are among my favorite academics in their ability to present the facts from best available research because they are such prolific writers.