Several Beginners Questions

[dalyn]

Hello all! i'm new to cheese making and have fallen in love with the challenges it presents. I live in Vancouver Canada. I have been "lurking" as somebody called it on here for around 2 weeks, gleaning as much info as i could about varied problems i was having. i have found many excellent posts, and in the end think i have solved my problems. i do however have a few questions that i'd love some incite on...
First some history on what i've been doing. Started out making Mozzarella with citric acid and Junket rennet. 1st batch with store bought organic homogenized goats milk? FAIL. Next two batches with normal store bought homo milk worked well (though never got that perfect clean break). Finally my Calcium Chloride arrived in the mail and I thought this would make all the difference! Next I tried a slightly different Mozzarella recipe that involved stirring the rennet in for around 5 minutes - FAIL. The next day I tried AGAIN but this time a Gouda recipe (that also required 5 minutes of rennet stirring) and let the rennet sit for over 2 hours - FAIL. Both times I was left with a very sour yogurt like substance. So you can imagine my frustration by this point. After doing multiple searches on this site I came to several conclusions - things I was changing for my next attempt.

I bought 2% PASTEURIZED milk, fresh CULTURED buttermilk (used as soon as it came to room temp. didn't wait for it to 'ripen' and get thick), finally found liquid animal rennet here in Vancouver, diluted my calcium and rennet in bottled Dasani water (in case the minimal chlorine we have in Vancouver tap water was ruining something) and followed the Gouda recipe from this site. Well what do you know? it all worked perfectly. Buttermilk sat in milk for 15 minutes and then stirred rennet for 1 minute. Beautiful clean break within 40 minutes!

So here are some questions:
1.Why do some recipes require more than 1 minute of stirring in the rennet? the times i did it for 5 i had epic failures.

2. Do you think that my changing from whole homogenized milk to the pasteurized 2% milk was what made the difference? or could it have been my Junket rennet?

3. While stirring the cut curds should i at some point should I use sterilized hands to break up the big pieces to create more even looking curds?

4. If there is a link on here to what poor 'knitting' looks like that would be great.

I know i'll have many more questions in the future. I'm finding that everybody kind of has their own twist on doing things in the forum, so it's been interesting finding what works for me (we all have different milk, water, environments that make each process a little different). *dalyn

[zenith1]

Hi Dalyn-I have a couple of comments that may help you, but first I think that like most of us when we get started we tend to be over ambitious with our cheese making. By that I mean that we want to start making all of these cheeses that we love right of the bat. I think i made that mistake myself. It is best to start with one cheese type and make it a few times to perfect your technique as far as stirring ,temp control(very important) and so forth. Then proceed to other types one at a time- they all present their unique challenges. As far as your specific questions
1)you are probably stirring way too much after adding the rennet, I never stir more than about a minute after adding the rennet.
2)Although I don't think you said if the organic milk was Pasteurized this could have been part of your issues.Generally I would add cacl to all store bought milk if it has been pasteurized. The milk being whole or 2% has no impact on the cheese make other than total yield of curd. Also I think a lot of times when using goats milk you will have a softer curd formation. Your issue probably was related to your use of the rennet-too much stirring, old rennet etc. Another variable that you added was using the buttermilk for your starter. You can certainly do that but since the buttermilk will vary in culture content from purchase to purchase, so will your final product using it. It might be better to buy a commercially produced starter that you know will give you consistent results from make to make.
3) milling of the curds is done differently in every recipe . You can certainly use clean hands to stir or mill the curd based on your needs.
Anyway -enjoy the process!

[dalyn]

Hi Zenith1, Thanks for your reply. the goats milk was homogenized store bought. I believe that all the things I changed combined made all the difference. new liquid rennet, pasteurized milk, bottled water, only stirring 1 minute etc... i will invest in some commercial starters for sure as i know buttermilk from the store might not always be consistently fresh.
And I hear you on wanting to jump the gun and be over ambitious with the cheese making! i'm trying to hold back. i won't get to taste my Gouda for i guess 25 days now. Today i'm going to try a simple cheddar. I've attached some pics of the '5 minute rennet stirred curds' that turned into goo after further soft stirring. and also a pic of my 1st pressed cheese. i'm pretty sure it looks ok. popping it in it's brine now. *dalyn

[linuxboy]

So here are some questions:
1.Why do some recipes require more than 1 minute of stirring in the rennet? the times i did it for 5 i had epic failures.

Hi and welcome. To answer your question, those recipes that require a long stirring time are bad recipes. There's no other way to say it. You need to stir enough to incorporate the rennet. In a large cheese vat, that means letting the paddles travel one length. In a soup pot, that means stirring up and down for 10-20 strokes, which should take about 30 seconds.

2. Do you think that my changing from whole homogenized milk to the pasteurized 2% milk was what made the difference? or could it have been my Junket rennet?

Either/both of those. Milk matters, so does the rennet.

3. While stirring the cut curds should i at some point should I use sterilized hands to break up the big pieces to create more even looking curds?

Use a sterilized utensil, such as a whisk or spoon or knife. It's easier; hands are just about impossible to sanitize thoroughly.

4. If there is a link on here to what poor 'knitting' looks like that would be great.

It looks the same as a good knit, but comes apart easily. It's not about the appearance, but the rheology for the knit, which you can measure for either with test instruments or by sensory inspection.

[dalyn]

Well that's lame that they are just bad recipes if asked to stir that long. the cheddar recipe on this site http://cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Cheddar.htm say stir for at least 5 minutes. I just did as you said, around a minute.

Also, another quick question. There is a cheese guru guy on here that recommends the plate press for the first pressing, seen to the right in the pics here, http://cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Gouda/Recipe_Gouda.htm  after doing this and the curds have stuck together on the bottom, do i then break them up before sticking into my press? or leave them in biggish chunks? it does say try to minimize breakage of the curd pack, but i feel like the curds might not make it into the corners of my press? or maybe they will with all the weight later put on them. don't want to do a step that may ruin something. thank you all for the help... *dalyn

[linuxboy]

The point of pre-pressing or pressing under whey is to help eliminate mechanical openings. It encourages a better knit. I do it in some form for most continental type cheeses. If you press under whey, yes, it will already form a wheel. If the size of your mold and pot are different, then you do need to find a way to stuff the cheese in, in pieces. And then press for it to form a uniform wheel. After prepressing, ideally, you'd take one chunk and then press it into the right shape. If you try to fuse multiple large pieces, the fuse points will be different than the fuse points in the whey. Nothing drastic, but that's what happens.

[dalyn]

OK that makes sense. I think I will plate press the curds I have right now (for a simple cheddar) in the pot under what whey is left. Any idea how much weight I should use? I used 1.5 pounds for the gouda i made for 15 minutes. this is for 1 gallon of milk. *dalyn

[KosherBaker]

Welcome to the forum Dalyn. I noticed in your post above you mentioned the use of Goat Milk in one of your cheeses. Here is US goat milk moves a lot slower than cow's milk so it is almost always Ultra Pasteurized, rendering it unusable for cheese production. Several cow milk retailers insist on having their milk Ultra Pasteurized as well, which extends their shelf life but makes the milk unusable for us as cheese makers.

4. If there is a link on here to what poor 'knitting' looks like that would be great.

Generally the term knitting usually refers to the already formed and "cooked" curds sticking together to form the wheel/block of cheese. What I think you are asking about is the process of coagulation. That is when milk turns into a solid matter and coagulates. This is when most books tell you to look for a clean break. On this forum linuxboy has posted about the flocculation point as a superior technique to looking for a clean break. And most people here use that instead. If you do a search on flocculation you'll see what it is. It's very simple to understand and implement.

Enjoy your foray into this wonderful hobby and definitely share the successes and failures with us. So we can learn all together.

[windowater]

In Vancouver you can buy SOME cheese making supplies at Gourmet Warehouse on East Hastings between Commercial & Clark.  If you're still using Junket rennet give it up and get some rennet from them.  They also have Calcium Chloride and some starter cultures (both meso and thermo).  Not sure what else they have as their shipment had just arrived last time I was there.  There was some talk of maybe getting a group together so that might become a resource if it were to happen.

[Boofer]

the cheddar recipe on this site http://cheeseforum.org/Recipes/Recipe_Cheddar.htm say stir for at least 5 minutes. I just did as you said, around a minute.

That recipe needs to be edited/corrected. This is not the first person who has stirred for 5 minutes after they've added their rennet.

John, who edits these recipes?

-Boofer-

[dalyn]

Windowater: I take it you live in Vancouver or at least the lower mainland. I had no idea Gourmet Warehouse had all that stuff (i've done extensive web searches trying to find supplies). I found some liquid rennet at http://gallowaysfoods.com/ in Richmond, made a huge difference. Took me TWO weeks to get my calcium chloride for the US - much too long for my liking and i don't think a culture being in transit that long would be good for it. It would be great if we could get somebody supplying cheese making supplies out here on the west coast (like molds, presses etc). it makes total sense, no? i think IF they advertised properly on the web they'd get plenty of business. it would most likely be a great home business for somebody as well. anyways - i'm addicted to making this stuff. let me know if you have any other lines for supplies on the coast.

as for the "knitting" question i asked, it looks like i won't really know till i try and slice the cheese? i'll try and do some more reading on this. i'm guessing it will have to do with the final texture?

I can't say enough how great it is to have this forum where people actually answer your questions! makes the process less stressful for somebody new. *dalyn

[Webmaster]

Just saw this thread, windowater very sorry for the bad advice. Your links above went to the old website which is now deleted, all the website Recipes, Equipment, Ingredients, Defects webpages went to the Wiki section of the new articles based website.

The advantage of this new system is anyone can post Articles and anyone can edit the Wiki Articles (although I retain the right to rollback if not a good edit, just PM me and I'll send you the password.

Thanks for links on suppliers, just added to our listing.