Cheese cave temperature question

[FRANCOIS]

I think Neville has his boxes custom made all out of SS.  You'll need ventilation as well, best to put that on a programmable Honeywell timer.  That way you can adjust event timing to suit how much cheese you have in the cave. Remembr to draw the exhaust from low and allow high make up with a descent backdraft damper.  Since the exhaust pipe will have condensation in it, use a good sealed fan for corrosive environments, or plan on changing it annually.

I used to have a sweet digital humidity setup that would read a single humidity sensor in the cave and turn on a solenoid and booster pump if it was low to send high pressure water to the misting nozzles.  It worked really well, I had worried when I made it that i would get droplets on the cheese but it never happened. 

To minimise variations you'll need the fan on constantly in the cave, which isn't very energy savvy.  That's why I think it's better to just understand your cave variations and work with them.

[ArnaudForestier]

Linux, I would suggest a custom coil and fan box if possible.  You can slow the speed of the air right down, increase total volume and keep the flow laminar around the cave.  This simulates a natural cave much more closely.  If you do this with a normal cooler you'll freeze the coil in this application, which is not good.

Francois, can you go into this a bit more, for the engineering challenged?  What exactly are you proposing? 

Did you need some temp and humidity targets? Which cheeses? And with which molds on the rind?

Linux, further to our offline exchanges and for the benefit of others, if such a thing exists, I was looking for some sort of breakdown that would be considered "classic" for each of several beloved cheeses - my personal bent tends to French styles.  It would be great if there was a cataloging, say, of abondance caves.

Guys, both: this notion of socks is very interesting to me, though not sure how one might apply it to a standard reefer.  I've got a square cool air inlet in the back, and other than that just this little nano-humidifier.  Woke up this morning to a mean temp of approximately 49F and with the humidifier on 1/2 hr, off 15 minutes, well...a pea soup of fog, way too humidified.  I could go to a humidistat, but hoping for a more low tech (read:  cheaper) alternative. 

[FRANCOIS]

It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try.  From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort).  This is an ideal. 

If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity.  They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled.  If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.

You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.

So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil.  The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil.  When this happens that water freezes.  Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice.  No air can pass through.  All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running.  Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether.  The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.

[ArnaudForestier]

It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try.  From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort).  This is an ideal. 

If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity.  They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled.  If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.

You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.

So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil.  The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil.  When this happens that water freezes.  Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice.  No air can pass through.  All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running.  Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether.  The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.

Oh. sorry, got it, Francois, thanks.  I was thrown as the context I'm dealing with is a standard, upright kitchen refrigerator, not a walk-in with an evaporative cooler, etc.; though the principles are there, I couldn't see how this might apply to your average consumer refrigerator.  I've actually thought of emulating a larger system by building out, at least in my mind, an external humidifier complete with ductwork, humidistat and sock....but I get ahead of myself; I've only recently acquired this free refrigerator, and want to find a cheap means to control both the temp and humidity at a given level.

As I earlier mentioned, want to concentrate on a single variety, and perfect it; so seeking to emulate as much as I can, with this humble refrigerator, a natural cave environment, a terroir if you will, of that cheese.  "As much as I can," mind you....for as little as I can. 

[FRANCOIS]

I misunderstood, I know a "reefer" as a refrigerated container (either 20 or 40 feet long).  Lots of small operations use them to age cheese in.

[ArnaudForestier]

Gotcha, Francois, and thanks for the info, truly (lingo.....former chef, so understand patois and its variants); I'm not being completely ridiculous, anyway, when I say that I am already musing on possibilities, so I personally find the expertise fascinating and valuable.  Thanks go to both yourself, and Linux.

[FRANCOIS]

If you are lokking for a small cheap humidity solution, try watching for these on Ebay:

http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm
or
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml

The work by turning a device on or off based on humidity thresh holds.  They are expensive if you buy them new form a greenhouse or hydroponics supply but like i said, they come up cheap sometimes on fleabay.

[ArnaudForestier]

If you are lokking for a small cheap humidity solution, try watching for these on Ebay:

http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm
or
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml

The work by turning a device on or off based on humidity thresh holds.  They are expensive if you buy them new form a greenhouse or hydroponics supply but like i said, they come up cheap sometimes on fleabay.

Thanks, Francois.  I've been combing the web for solutions like these.  One thing I've been on the lookout for is the threshold at which these operate - with many at 80-90%, would be problematic for the 95% I was shooting for.  But thanks for the links, hadn't yet seen these.

I should add that what I have now is a simple aquarium timer that I used for both my CO2 solenoid and my T5HO lighting.  Very simple affair, with tabs for on and off....based on the water bath I achieved overnight, I'm trying 15 minutes "on" every hour, but still very unsatisfactory, I'm sure, as this makes no provision for actual RH level (saw your comment on total humidity, by the way).  So it's a war between my itch to get started, and my natural punctilious bent with anything culinary.

Edit:  Maybe should be on another thread, but intrigued by the story of Little Falls Farm, a case study in the Silvery Moon Creamery aging options report.  They use, and are pleased, with the Coolbot.  Their total refrigeration cost for a 1000 c.f. space was, at the time of writing, $650.  The downside of the Coolbot, at least in the one instance I read it, seems to be the thing you and Linux mention - the high velocity of air flow over the cheese tends to make for a rather sterile environment.  On the other hand, Little Falls mentions in the hottest part of their year, their AC runs a few minutes only every hour.

Complete noob question, I'm sure - but can one find a way to depend on passive, or only very mildly assisted, ventilation for air flow?  Meaning, if depending on radiant cooling, for instance, in some way, could not a passive ventilation system provide the needed, mild air flow in a given cave?

[ArnaudForestier]

Just wanted to add, I'm set to buy a humidistat, but of the ones you listed, Francois (at least the ones close to an acceptable price), the range was only up to 80%.  Did you or anyone else have a suggestion on a humidistat ranging up to 95%, that wouldn't be in the several hundred$ range?

Edit: For instance, Zoo Med's Hygrotherm is available at under $100.  Goes up to 95% RH, but concerned about how accurate the humidistat might be, though; anyone with any experience with these?

[FRANCOIS]

I just grabbed those off Google as examples, I didn't check them out closely.  There is definitely a hydro-ponics one that goes up to 99%, I used to have it.  It is a simple black metal box with some plugs on it for equipment.  I'll have a better look and see if I can find it.

[ArnaudForestier]

I just grabbed those off Google as examples, I didn't check them out closely.  There is definitely a hydro-ponics one that goes up to 99%, I used to have it.  It is a simple black metal box with some plugs on it for equipment.  I'll have a better look and see if I can find it.

Francois, sorry, should have updated.  I did see that you can get a Green Air relative humidity controller, which goes up to 100% (though they only attest accuracy up to 90%), but nothing on e-bay for now (only the Green Air Total Humidity Controller); new, the "RHC" was close to $300, so out of budget. 

I ended up going with a Graco cool-mist (not US, but wick and fan system) programmable humidifer, per cartierusm's experience, which nominally goes to 90%.  I had hoped for higher, but will go with this for now.  We'll see how it goes.

Many thanks,

Paul

[FRANCOIS]

Fancy that, I just found it too.  The RHC is what I had.  I used it for some hot-rodded refrigerators that I ripened camemberts in.  I think I got one or two of them from Farmtek on sale and the others off Ebay.

[ArnaudForestier]

Definitely keeping my eyes peeled.  Would love the higher %. 

[Buck47]

For what it's worth, Years ago I built a Root Cellar in my basement. Old farm house, 2 foot thick linestone walls, deep basement 8 foot ceilings.  I selected a corner wall - L shaped and simply built another L shaped wall with a door. The door is from an old walk in type cooler. Busted through the limestone wall at grade level and put in Two plastic vent pipes. Built the walls six inches thick With insulation, ceiling has 12 inches insulation.

Left the original linestone walls as is, the two new walls inside where covered with cement board and sealed with potland cement.

Fitted the plastic pipes so as to have intake and exhaust air. And built some shelves.

High temps in Summer reach 59 -60F Winter Jan now is the coldest Lowest reading 47F

RH is always high year round. Never below 85%  I could warm the room up this time of year by closing the vent pipes, But then I would lose air circulation.  So far I've left the temp get as low as 47F (it's was  -10 below zero outside last night) Most of the winter temps average in the mid 50's. The only hot month is August (Iowa can get hot and humid that time of year) Most of the year Temps run 51 to 57F

I feel I could regulate the temp more closely -- But I'm just getting started making cheese and all that will come in time.

It seems to me, this is a viable solution to having a cave. Most any home basement would have a place for a build. The hard part if I remember was busting through the stone wall to install vent pipes.

Thought I would share as I have found it's really not that expensive or difficult to build a larger walk in cave that works reasonably well. I would think materials would be around $250.00 - $300.00 at the most. Remember your only building two walls.

Regards: john

[ArnaudForestier]

It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try.  From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort).  This is an ideal. 

If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity.  They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled.  If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.

You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.

So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil.  The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil.  When this happens that water freezes.  Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice.  No air can pass through.  All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running.  Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether.  The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.

Old thread - but Francois, if you're ever around: 

Presuming an above-ground space with intense insulation, really well insulated.  What would you say is the best cooling system?  Radiant, ice water? I've learned in my small cave that I'm not a fan of trying to cool air, keep flow to that minimum you speak of, and good RH, along with uniform distribution of both temp and RH, with very little gradients.  So while I do appreciate the coolbot and what it does, I'm already thinking of a better means to cool a cave.  Any thoughts, very much appreciated.