Author Topic: Cheese cave temperature question  (Read 12280 times)

John@PC

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2014, 08:53:58 PM »
Francois explained it perfectly.  In answer to your earlier question I would guess that the "fog" in the video was generated by high pressure misting nozzels like this.  I did a search and found several and apparently rely on very fine orifices, high water pressure (or some using a combination of water and air at lower pressures) to break the droplets into very fine (5 micron or so) particles that stay in suspension until it evaporates.  I know you've been to your local high-end meat or produce up there in Madison where every now and then the food cabinets fills with fog.  I actually have some nozzles in a set-up to run with a fan for evaporative cooling on hot days on the deck and runs on regular water pressure, but the droplets are bigger and if you stand in front of it you find religion (i.e. be "baptized" :)).

As for the ideal setting (other than a real cave) Consider Bardwell Farms in Vermont has caves specially built by Rust that use cooling water circulating in cement walls and don't rely on a/c and apparently keep humidity on target just with the cheeses.   

Which leads back to the scourge of the A/C.  I used to think that if there were some way to control coil temperature (CoolBot only checks for icing as I remember) so that it stays above dew point but below target but I don't know enough about refrigeration to do that.   However, it makes since that if the volume of air going across the condensing coils increased, the delta T (temp of air in vs. out) should decrease.  The A/C has a fan but it would be interesting see what would happen if you had a second (box?) fan blowing on the coils from inside the cave.  The other thing I thought of is can you take the condensate from the A/C and pump it up to a wick in front of the air coming out into the cave and use the A/C like a BIG Cave Cube.  Good luck in your endeavor to play the part of Petruchio in "Taming of the Shrew Cave" ;D

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2014, 09:33:43 PM »
Thanks John.  I know that Francois loves Agri-Misters and I am looking into those.  I think his plant operates on all ultrasonics now.  Completely subjective, but by my eyes the fog from that video is ultrasonic - has the almost bluish, smoke-like quality I associate with UH whereas I find misters a bit more mistlike.  Have no idea, though, and you could be completely right. 

On the pipes Consider uses, that's cool, I didn't know that.  That's actually what I was thinking of when I mentioned the radiant cooling.  I've seen systems with the pipeline running outside and along the walls, and know of systems where the pipeline runs inside the wall.  Here, for instance.  I designed it for the guy. 8)  1250 meters of radiant cooling stainless pipework.  Amazing.  Sounds ideal, my only question is on the issue of condensation on the pipes.  But that seems a small price to pay for air-flowless cooling, and the only air flow needed can easily be calculated and implemented with dedicated venting, fans, etc. 

Your a/c stuff is beyond me though I get it conceptually.  That would be one very cool improvement.  Well two, actually, with your wick and fan system married to such a thing!

OK, ugly. 



Do not laugheth, says a guy who never played Petruchio. But loved Burton in the role.  This was just tacked up and I moved and fixed the fans in different positions.  Ultimately didn't work...but tried, man! ;D

Edit:  I should say, it's right at 3:19 of the video, that I mean when I say, "blue smoke."  Though I admit I've never looked as closely at the nozzle-fog coming from misters, as at ultrasonic fog.

Edit II:  Pretty cool PDF on air-cheese interaction.  It's pushing their system, but some interesting notions, I found, anyway.

Edit III:  Did some digging, Areco might be the company handling Paccard's humidity system; though they list as "nebulizer" humidification I don't know what technology they actually use to nebulize.  Are you able to tell, John? Is that a mister, or some other means to break up the water (say, like the Trion 707U)?

Edit IV (this might be it!):  Just confirmed from Areco's site, this is exactly the system shown in that video.  They list Paccard as one of their cheese clients and the very room from the video is featured in their cheese client photo gallery, "Système d'humidification par nébulisation Areco pour fromagerie Paccard." 

Edit V:  Nope, one more. 

Quote
This technology, nebulization, consists of fragmenting liquids (water, perfume or biocide) via a piezoelectric system to obtain an extremely fine mist (95% of the drops have a diameter of less than 5µm)


-that's ultrasonic, right?  Piezoelectric element?

Edit VII:  OK, if you all haven't thought I'm crazy by now, last edit, promise.  Confirmed, it's not nozzle-misting technology:

Quote
Dans le domaine de l’humidification, contrairement à la brumisation (aspersion via des buses de diffusion), la nébulisation générée par les humidificateurs Areco ne mouille pas ...


-Basically, if you don't read French anyone, they distinguish misting via diffusion nozzles, as in agri-misting, grocery stores, etc., from their nebulizing system; claiming that unlike the grocery misters, their system doesn't lead to wetting products.  Can't vouch for whether that's a true distinction or not, as I've seen many descriptions of "dry fogging systems" that use atomizing nozzles, such as what John's talking about above. 

This is infinitely fascinating to me.  I don't know if such a system would be feasible at any but the most capitalized, high-end facility such as Paccard's...but must say, it looks beautiful.  Jury rig such a thing, for a small farmstead producer?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 10:27:40 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2014, 10:28:33 PM »
Speaking of ultrasonics, here's a a cool DIY commercial ultrasonic mist maker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE

6L per hour! Connect those exhaust holes to some PVC pipes with holes at intervals for the mist to come out, maybe even add a waterproof fan to help push out and you have yourself a humidifier that produces equal mist everywhere in the cave.

John@PC

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2014, 11:08:01 PM »
Eric, you may have found the holy grail of economical fogging :) and a cheese to you for passing it on.  I made it halfway through your video link and said WHAT?  Went to his website and these have a great cost vs. vapor generated ratio.  I like the DIY concept too.  Need to take some time to digest and maybe contact the supplier but it looks extremely interesting for potential solutions to Paul's and other "small to medium" sized caves. 

Offline awakephd

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2014, 04:19:48 PM »
Paul,

I just read this thread after replying to another -- I see that you are way ahead of my rambling thinking-out-loud about a radiant system, rather than forced air. But maybe the idea of a "cool wall" could still work ... I don't know how much heat transfer would be achieved by a narrow concrete block wall, but perhaps a wall constructed of stainless sheet would do the trick? Of course, aluminum would be far more efficient in transferring heat; don't know how well it would work for sanitation and cost.

Andy
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2014, 06:20:41 PM »
Speaking of ultrasonics, here's a a cool DIY commercial ultrasonic mist maker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE

6L per hour! Connect those exhaust holes to some PVC pipes with holes at intervals for the mist to come out, maybe even add a waterproof fan to help push out and you have yourself a humidifier that produces equal mist everywhere in the cave.

Eric, thanks man, really intriguing company.  Haven't had the time to look to closely yet, but looks very cool.  Cheese to you my friend, will check it out!
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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2014, 06:32:29 PM »
Paul,

I just read this thread after replying to another -- I see that you are way ahead of my rambling thinking-out-loud about a radiant system, rather than forced air. But maybe the idea of a "cool wall" could still work ... I don't know how much heat transfer would be achieved by a narrow concrete block wall, but perhaps a wall constructed of stainless sheet would do the trick? Of course, aluminum would be far more efficient in transferring heat; don't know how well it would work for sanitation and cost.

Andy

Whoops!  Sorry Andy, missed this.  Replied in the other thread.  Have you seen the Mons cave?  Intense, with all that s/s tubing buried in the wall.  And the Paccard video, that fog is absolutely beautiful.  Both employ passive cooling and insulation, as well as small active cooling with radiant pipework only. 

Pav has a notion of brick or block sandwiching air, and perhaps the icewater line in there makes sense?  I'm afraid I am flatly ignorant to all things engineering, but I tend to be both monomaniacal about the interest du jour, as well as a decent learner so I'm really looking forward to thinking on this more.  I love the idea of separating out needed air from cooling...so much better, it seems to me, than trying to get cold air and fog working together and not antagonistically.
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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2014, 11:07:29 PM »
I know I'm highjacking again, but just want to share the following findings on ultrasonic: Water temp is important. At 50F you won't get much results, so the water tank needs to be outside the cave, or in the cave but somehow warmed and insulated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8D-g9EPXXY&list=UUtZlAV1Rgr-n0giJCy4I4YA

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2014, 11:24:42 PM »
Eric, thanks, cool video.  Don't know, makes sense, but here's mine at 52, for example:



Mine obviously have the reservoirs in the cave.  I don't know what commercial folks do, who use UHs.  Be interesting to see.
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Re: Cheese cave temperature question
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2014, 11:51:14 PM »
seedling mats around the water tanks?