Author Topic: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?  (Read 8367 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but twas ever thus, so here goes:

Interested in making a tomme.  While I'm interested in doing washed rind cheeses down the road, I'd like to gain some mastery of techniques by limiting variables, first, so I'd like to go with a natural rind development. 

That said, I am interested in encouraging a natural mold development, but do not know how one goes about encouraging beneficial flora, and discouraging harmful molds. 

Secondly, from brewing days, I am always interested in ambient flora, and their effect on "terroir" anything - whether wine, or lambics, for instance.  To that end, for some years I had a dedicated microbiology lab of sorts, at home, and engaged in "industrial subterfuge," capturing yeasts from any of dozens of much loved ales, drying them, single-colony isolating them, and banked them (somewhere, in my moves, are hundreds of sterile plates, wire loops, etc.).  Any thoughts, specifically, on species involved in a classic tomme de savoie, at least broadly speaking?

I freely admit my tyro status, so apologies if this has been covered, or if what I'm saying makes little sense (e.g., seeking "savoie" indigenous flora, for use in a "natural rind" tomme made in WI; or indeed, using anything other than ambient flora on a supposed natural rind). 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 06:21:08 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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linuxboy

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 08:20:23 PM »
Are you sure we're not related, Paul? Brewer, trained French chef, mad scientist lab, ever decreasing kitchen and house space due to "hobbies"... understanding wife... You even have the anglicized version of my name... :o

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That said, I am interested in encouraging a natural mold development, but do not know how one goes about encouraging beneficial flora, and discouraging harmful molds.

You do this by seeding the environment you want with the flora you want, fighting against blooms and outbreaks of undesireables, and giving the flora favorable conditions.

The thing is, the favorable conditions are ~90% humidity, and 50-55F for most of the flora you want, and also for the flora you do not want. If those environmental variables stay the same, they all will compete for the same food, space, and other resources. So if that competition exists, and you keep seeding with good molds, and removing bad ones, eventually the cave will be at a sort of uneasy truce and equilibrium. Note, you need a sizeable space to do this, and you need good air movement and air exchange. You can't do this in a fridge, for example.

To draw a parallel to beer, in warm wort, you can get yeast, lactobacilli, acetobacter, and a whole bunch of other stuff to grow. You don't want those, most of the time, so you control it by sterilizing, boiling, CO2 gassing, etc.

Here's a quick rundown on the most common flora types and their preferred conditions:

- Geotrichums like 92-95% RH, high O2 levels, and 52F, and up to 5% salt, depends on variant
- Penicilliums, both roqueforti and candidum like very high O2, 95% RH, and 50-55F, salt tolerance usually at least 4%, can be as high as 10%. Likes dry rind to bloom.
- Debromyces and Kluyveromyces like standard yeast conditions, 55-60F, sugar, nitrogen source, etc.
- Misc Streptococcus like 2-3% salt, can be higher, pH >5.7
- B linens likes 98% RH, 52F, 3% salt min, 14-15% salt max, pH >5.8

When you are crafting a rind, it is about knowing the cascade of blooming/growth of the ecology, and the controls you have to encourage dominance of one species. Controls are temp, humidity, salt, oxygen. Very often on the forums you will read rind answers from me that start with "it depends". It's not straightforward, but there are proven ways to create specific types of rinds, which is generally what I ask about in order to answer.

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Any thoughts, specifically, on species involved in a classic tomme de savoie, at least broadly speaking?

Yes, multiple native geotrichum strains, arthrobacter, b linens or other corynebacteria, possibly Rhodotorula. You can buy a piece of tomme de savoie and isolate the strains and culture them if you want exact replication. Similar to yeast.

If you want a cheaper/easier trial solution, take a tomme rind, puree in distilled water, and both add that to milk, and make a rind wash from the puree, and it should give you a similar outcome.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 08:27:43 PM by linuxboy »

MrsKK

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 01:02:51 PM »
"...mad scientist lab..."

I'm glad you said that, Linux, because I've been thinking that for a LONG time! <Smile>

All the rest of this discussion is way over my head.  You fellas just have at it!

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 07:53:01 PM »
Sorry for the belated reply, and thanks for the posts, both - I only realized this morning that reply notification  is an election, and not something automatically done on creating a thread. 

Linux - lol - though my blood is indeed French, nothing like my username.  Not sure what inspired "ArnaudForestier" beyond the fact I have a French pal from Aikido days by the surname, and must have been wanting a mushroom sauce of some sort for lunch, and grabbed the masculinization of the word.  That said, I have been speaking French since about age 6 or so, and cooking it not that long after (my mom - first generation American of French blood - bought this weird kid Pépin's La Technique, which I worked cover to cover, over and over, as a 12-13 year old; began doing formal, Belle Époque styled meals for family, then friends, then the public....and it went thus).  Well, not without bumps.  There was that time before about 20 or so, doing crêpes suzette; involves fire, me, hairline, host's carpeting, and a teen's screeching voice proclaiming "everything'sokeverything'sokeverything'sok...."  Out of disaster, grows....)

Man, thank you so much, Linux.  I intend on following your method and recipe, and was very keyed by your comments on cascading, on another's recipe (itself a variant on yours - sorry, have lost the thread). 
Fascinating.  I think I dream, at this point, as we aren't even sure whether we're here for the long haul, or hightailing to the E.U. for a period of time (wife has citizenship), so the notion of creating the bonafide cave will have to be backburnered.  But you've started me on a fascinating inquiry, many thanks for the expertise, and the seed to learn more.

That said, the microbial thief in me is keyed:

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Yes, multiple native geotrichum strains, arthrobacter, b linens or other corynebacteria, possibly Rhodotorula. You can buy a piece of tomme de savoie and isolate the strains and culture them if you want exact replication. Similar to yeast.

If you want a cheaper/easier trial solution, take a tomme rind, puree in distilled water, and both add that to milk, and make a rind wash from the puree, and it should give you a similar outcome.


Going with the second suggestion (for now, until I recover my micro-lab from mothballs), any specific suggestions on amounts - i.e., presuming a slurry/puree of the rind, how much one would add to the ripening milk, and (briny?) wash solution.

Also edited to add:  sorry for the length, but on the notion of competitiveness among flora, thought you might get a kick out of this.  At Goose Island, where I worked, we were fanatical for cleanliness and QC regimens; every run had something like 19 assays across the production flow, with the flow entirely a closed system. 

Won a trip to England years ago, went to a wonderful brewery out of Stoke-on-Trent, watched him pitch yeast by grabbing some in a bucket, walking with the open bucket at shin-level across an open floor (former auto-repair garage), out a courtyard, and into the open fermentor.  Stirred with what looked like a pretty crusty paddle, and his bare hands to wipe the slurry excess at the end. 

I asked him if he ever had issues with spoilage, unwanted beasties, and he claimed no.  Based on what I drank then, and brought home, I believe him.  Many wonderful ales.  Proof that decades, sometimes centuries of native culture can truly become microbial pac-men. ;D

« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 08:06:13 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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linuxboy

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 11:30:25 PM »
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Going with the second suggestion (for now, until I recover my micro-lab from mothballs), any specific suggestions on amounts - i.e., presuming a slurry/puree of the rind, how much one would add to the ripening milk,

Start with 1% by volume of the rind, which when pureed will likely be something like 3-5% because you need some water to mix it all it.
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and (briny?) wash solution.

Same. Start with 1-2% salinity in the wash because it's hard to know how sensitive the geotrichum and penicillium strains are.

That's an amazing story about old-school brewing, loved it.

Chris_Abrahamson

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 12:09:22 AM »
LB

I want to make sure I'm understanding the math correctly..

So, if you are going to use 4 gal of milk for a tomme you would puree 5 oz of a tomme rind (4gal x 8lb/gal x 16oz/lb x 1% = 5 oz +/-) in distilled water before adding it to the ripening milk?

On a similar subject, I have been thinking about doing some goat milk blues but have been put off by the cost of p. roqueforti ($34 per pkg at DC).  Could you take the same approach with using the mold from an existing blue?  Same type of percentage - 1-2%?

Thanks

linuxboy

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 12:17:55 AM »
It's only a starting point to use 1%. If you can manage to shave off just the outer rind, you can use much less than 1%. I'm trying to give a safe recommendation for something that works. At 1% using something like 1/4" - 1/2" thick rind piece, you should have enough to get a good representative bloom.

Yep, absolutely, you can puree a chunk of blue. About the same amount, yes. Depends on how many blue veins you have because you're after the spores.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 01:02:52 AM »
This is a blast, Linux, thanks.  Will have to go out and get a tomme I especially like.  And ranch the dozens of others, I'm sure.

This may be a lame question - but no issues with paste texture, using a pureed rind like this? 
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Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 06:08:49 PM »
I would love to partake in the science of cheese and brewing but alas the only space my hobbies have not taken over completely yet is my bedroom and I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 09:47:50 PM »
I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.

Dutch press?
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OudeKaas

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 11:53:28 PM »
I would love to partake in the science of cheese and brewing but alas the only space my hobbies have not taken over completely yet is my bedroom and I have yet to figure out how to hang a hamock in there to make more room.

Is it wrong that I read this as 'ham hock'? ^_^

Dgarner23

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 03:35:43 AM »
SO, I have a tomme that I'm just getting ready to put in my "cave"   I have the rind from a nice  tomme de savoie.  I will puree according to above directions.  What procedures and conditions should I keep it in to promote the proper growth of a rind similar to the tomme de savoie?

linuxboy

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2011, 06:58:55 AM »
What does the rind look like? There are several typical tommes made in the savoie, depends which one you use.

Dgarner23

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 02:22:58 PM »
A medium brown thick rind.

OudeKaas

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Re: Encouraging/emulating beneficial indigenous molds on a natural rind tomme?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 06:55:02 PM »
I think I'm going to try the "pureed-rind mild brine wash" method with the goat tomme I made a week ago. It seems to have dried out nicely and has a pretty tight white surface now.

I have been stowing little chunks of rind from nice artisanal cheeses in my modified mini-fridge for a month or so now in the interests of encouraging a good environment. However, the ghee-covered cheddars I have in there have developed mostly green mold, with some small patches of dark grey or black as well.

I had a moment of surprise when I saw what I thought were pure white molds growing on the little goat wheels, but upon closer inspection it just seems to be lighter patches of purer white appearing in the cheese itself - possibly occuring in areas where a little water from the freezer tray above dripped on to the surface?