Okay, My Head Is Spinning

[humble_servant7]

With all the intense scientific discussions over cultures, the different types, the different amounts to use, etc.-- it all just gets a BIT overwhelming trying to gather up the info on all this stuff.

So, let's start from the basics and go forward as to clear any misconceptions up.
I understand the difference between meso vs. thermo but...

What are the different types of cultures (DVI, DCU, clabber, etc) and what do they mean?

[linuxboy]

Let's simplify it then

1) To get to cheese, you need bacteria
2) Bacteria come in different shapes and varieties.
3) Based on the varieties, they are classified as thermophilic or mesophilic
4) This bacteria can be added in different concentrations and different forms
 a. As fresh bacteria cultured and added by volume. This includes your typical "buttermilk starters". It also includes clabber, mother starters, etc.
  b. As freeze dried culture, where the bacteria is really, really concentrated (50x or more). This is called DVI  or DVS culture.
  c. As frozen culture, in pellet form, also very very concentrated. This is called frozen pellet culture.
5) You add the bacteria according to the recipe, usually somewhere between 1% and 2% by volume of the bulk starter, or its frozen or freeze dried equivalent.
6) To get the frozen or freeze dried equivalent for the bulk starter amount, use the chart I have posted before on the forum. For Danisco, it is 1% bulk equivalent = 6.25 DCU. A DCU is a specific number of bacteria designed to equal a bulk starter equivalent for a volume of milk.

It's all about the bacteria, and the live number of viable bacteria. From there the bacteria have different concentrations for the same volume. For example, DVI culture is way more concentrated than bulk/mother starter. And you use the right concentration for the cheese style. The volume/weight will differ because the concentration differs.

Sorry if my other posts are confusing, you're probably been reading them. Hope the above makes it more clear.

[Buck47]

This sure helps me. Thanks linuxboy --- this I can understand. 

For me, having an overall view or idea of process and theory is most helpful. Fact is, that's the way I learn. Once I have a solid understanding of the conceptual idea, then learning the subtleties and complex variations becomes easy. Simply put ... I don't get lost in the detail.

To that end I have kept my cheese making simple with few variables.  Fresh raw cows milk, Danon Yogurt, Junket Rennet tablets, salt, a good thermometer and basic equipment(simple 6 inch press & molds).  My goal is to master the various combinations these give me. From what I understand this combination alone could take years to master.

Once again, linuxboy your knowledge is most valuable.

Regards: john

[humble_servant7]

Let's simplify it then

1) To get to cheese, you need bacteria
2) Bacteria come in different shapes and varieties.
3) Based on the varieties, they are classified as thermophilic or mesophilic
4) This bacteria can be added in different concentrations and different forms
 a. As fresh bacteria cultured and added by volume. This includes your typical "buttermilk starters". It also includes clabber, mother starters, etc.
  b. As freeze dried culture, where the bacteria is really, really concentrated (10x or more). This is called DVI  or DVS culture.
  c. As frozen culture, in pellet form, also very very concentrated. This is called frozen pellet culture.
5) You add the bacteria according to the recipe, usually somewhere between 1% and 2% by volume of the bulk starter, or its frozen or freeze dried equivalent.
6) To get the frozen or freeze dried equivalent for the bulk starter amount, use the chart I have posted before on the forum. For Danisco, it is 1% bulk equivalent = 6.25 DCU. A DCU is a specific number of bacteria designed to equal a bulk starter equivalent for a volume of milk.

It's all about the bacteria, and the live number of viable bacteria. From there the bacteria have different concentrations for the same volume. For example, DVI culture is way more concentrated than bulk/mother starter. And you use the right concentration for the cheese style. The volume/weight will differ because the concentration differs.

Sorry if my other posts are confusing, you're probably been reading them. Hope the above makes it more clear.

Okay. this all makes sense.
I've got your chart.:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4747.msg36503.html#msg36503

Next couple of questions:

1.) I'm assuming Danisco and CHR Hansen are the two big names that are all I need to know as far as buying either freeze-dried or frozen pellet cultures from, correct?
and the DCU is already calculated.

Is it written on the package already?

2.) which brings me to my next question-- the scale of what you have for ( lets just take 1%) which would be 6.5 DCU per 100 litres.

So, I'm guessing if I were to lower it down to its lowest possible denominator that would equate to about 1 DCU per roughly 15 liters, right?

For some reason-- either my math is off or the equation doesnt work as linear as I would like it to because when I tried to calculate what 25 DCU's would be good for, I got 375.

About 175 litres off from your answer which was 200 litres.

IDK what I am doing wrong here.

[linuxboy]

1.) I'm assuming Danisco and CHR Hansen are the two big names that are all I need to know as far as buying either freeze-dried or frozen pellet cultures from, correct?
and the DCU is already calculated.

Yes, together they have something like 80% of the market share in cheese cultures.

Is it written on the package already?

Yes

2.) which brings me to my next question-- the scale of what you have for ( lets just take 1%) which would be 6.5 DCU per 100 litres.

So, I'm guessing if I were to lower it down to its lowest possible denominator that would equate to about 1 DCU per roughly 15 liters, right?

At 1%, yes

For some reason-- either my math is off or the equation doesnt work as linear as I would like it to because when I tried to calculate what 25 DCU's would be good for, I got 375.

About 175 litres off from your answer which was 200 litres.

IDK what I am doing wrong here.

Most recipes I use do a 1.5% -2.0% bulk equivalent, hence around 200 liters (it was an estimate, not exact math). Some do 1%. Danisco recommends starting with 1% for all cheeses, and then adjusting as necessary to get you to where you want. The percentages differ, that's why the milk amounts differ. Cultured mozz, for example, usually uses a 2-3% bulk equivalent.

When I talk about this stuff, I'm talking about using large vats and dumping in a single entire packet of culture at a time. There's a lot more flexibility when working with larger batches. For example, I can easily use a 25 DCU packet in a 500 liter vat. I just let it ripen 20-30 longer before I add rennet, and that will give me the same number of bacteria because it gives me one more period where they can all double.

When abstracting the same concepts to smaller scales, milk behaves a little differently, and you can usually get away with using a wide range of starter amounts and still get a decent cheese. It's no good for consistency, but many home cheesemakers just want to make a tasty cheese and aren't so concerned with consistency.

[humble_servant7]

Most recipes I use do a 1.5% -2.0% bulk equivalent, hence around 200 liters (it was an estimate, not exact math). Some do 1%. Danisco recommends starting with 1% for all cheeses, and then adjusting as necessary to get you to where you want. The percentages differ, that's why the milk amounts differ. Cultured mozz, for example, usually uses a 2-3% bulk equivalent.

When I talk about this stuff, I'm talking about using large vats and dumping in a single entire packet of culture at a time. There's a lot more flexibility when working with larger batches. For example, I can easily use a 25 DCU packet in a 500 liter vat. I just let it ripen 20-30 longer before I add rennet, and that will give me the same number of bacteria because it gives me one more period where they can all double.

When abstracting the same concepts to smaller scales, milk behaves a little differently, and you can usually get away with using a wide range of starter amounts and still get a decent cheese. It's no good for consistency, but many home cheesemakers just want to make a tasty cheese and aren't so concerned with consistency.

Ah! Perfect!

so i think I'll start at 1% and then increase or decrease depending on result.

And which leads to the theorizing.... that result of whether or not I would seek a percentage increase would be
based on wat you told me in the last thread, concerning flavor, aroma, acidity, texture, and knit, am I correct?:

Yes, rennet sets the fastest at a pH of around 5.4 and a temp of 42C. When you go higher in pH or lower in temp, it steps progressively slower. For example, it might set your milk in 3 minutes at 5.5, and in 15 minutes at 6.5. Rennet is an enzyme, and enzymes have optimum ranges for the rate at which they act.

The cheese texture is about the rate of calcium and phosphorus solubilization. Put simply, there is colloidal calcium in casein, that holds casein fractions together. As the acidity builds up, it breaks up the calcium. And that influences texture. Generally, the more calcium, the less crumbly the cheese. You control calcium solubilization via two ways: knitting the curd at a specific pH (what I call whey drain pH), and brining the wheel at a specific pH (what I call brine pH). At a pH of 5.2, the phosphorus and calcium solubilization are at equilibrium. That's why for most cheeses, you brine at 5.4-5.5, because the acidity will build up a little more, and hit 5.2, so you get that lovely texture.

The starter helps to develop acidity, flavor, and aroma.

Can an increase in the percentage give forth a stronger cheese flavor if one so desires and feels the last cheese made was a bit too bland? But that would also mean that while the tip in the favor of flavor may be the cause of wanting to do such a thing, it may speed up the process by introducing more bacteria into the medium, also cause the texture, knit, and acidity to come at an unfortunate compromise because it's racing against the floccuation of the rennet too, correct?

Am I on the right track here?

[linuxboy]

And which leads to the theorizing.... that result of whether or not I would seek a percentage increase would be
based on wat you told me in the last thread, concerning flavor, aroma, acidity, texture, and knit, am I correct?

Increase is mostly to get faster acidity and shorten the make time. Cheddar, for example, is often 2%. A gouda tends to be 1-1.5%. A tomme will often be 1%. Notice how the acidity schedule and make process is way different for each. For cheddar, you want slower-acidifying cultures that give lots of flavor, but you don't want a 16-hour make, so you add more starter. The texture and knit are a result of acidity development.

Can an increase in the percentage give forth a stronger cheese flavor if one so desires and feels the last cheese made was a bit too bland?

yes, but again, have to make sure you adjust the make timing and make decisions based on pH and not time if you adjust the starter amount.

Or would this not be a smart idea seeing that while the tip in the favor of flavor may be the cause of wanting to do such a thing, it may also cause the texture, knit, and acidity to tip over and off the target also though? A delicate balancing act, I'm guessing?

Exactly. Faster is usually not better for cheesemaking, but it does make bulk cheesemaking more cost effective.

[humble_servant7]

Wow, LB, you are fast!

[linuxboy]

I have the forum as an RSS feed

[humble_servant7]

yes, but again, have to make sure you adjust the make timing and make decisions based on pH and not time if you adjust the starter amount.

Okay. Right.

1. One thing I've never understood is why some have talked about "racing against" the clock as far as trying to time the pH changes with the cooking process when I always thought that the cooking process was primarily DETERMINED on the 4 basic pH points-- which you gave me earlier this year:

a.) drop in.1 ph to let you know when to add rennet

b.) pH point when to let you know when it's time to drain (i'm guessing this includes pressing)

c.)  pH point when to let you know when to salt/ brine pH

d.) pH point at the time of aging/storing

Maybe it's the rennet that gives people a hard time as far as trying to keep up their cooking process with their pH targets?

anyways...

2.) as far as the difference in the percentages based on type of cheeses-- such as cheddar vs. tomme in your example-- the percentage SHOULD be included in the recipe of how much to use so that one, hopefully, would NOT have to go through the trial-and-error of putting in 1% of slow-acidifying cultures only to wait 16 hours for it to hit its target pH right?

[linuxboy]

Racing against the clock has to do with runaway acidity. You balance the temp, agitation, and curd size, to get a final moisture target in the curd. If you get to that moisture target and the acidity is not there, no problem. turn off the stir, let the curds settle, and let them build up acidity and you drain at the right pH. But what if the pH is running away and the curds are nowhere near done? What do you do? Fewer options then to do it easily, that's why it's a big deal.

Curd moisture is every bit as important and curd acidity, in some cheeses more so.

2.) as far as the difference in the percentages based on type of cheeses-- such as cheddar vs. tomme in your example-- the percentage SHOULD be included in the recipe of how much to use so that one, hopefully, would NOT have to go through the trial-and-error of putting in 1% of slow-acidifying cultures only to wait 16 hours for it to hit its target pH right?

Few people include bulk equivalencies or even bulk notation in their make recipes. I can understand why - it's tedious. The typical person wants to know how many teaspoons to add to the pot, not 3 different notations. I try to include bulk mother and bulk DVI notation in all my recipes.

As for the trial and error...eh, most recipes out there don't give you enough that you can just make a straight recipe. For example, most cheddar recipes out there call for Danisco's MM culture, which is a sub-optimal choice and acidity curve, and flavor profile to give a true artisan crafted cheddar. Most of the time you have to tweak stuff.

[humble_servant7]

Racing against the clock has to do with runaway acidity. You balance the temp, agitation, and curd size, to get a final moisture target in the curd. If you get to that moisture target and the acidity is not there, no problem. turn off the stir, let the curds settle, and let them build up acidity and you drain at the right pH. But what if the pH is running away and the curds are nowhere near done? What do you do? Fewer options then to do it easily, that's why it's a big deal.

Curd moisture is every bit as important and curd acidity, in some cheeses more so.

Okay... maybe i'm not understanding but..

Let's take your mozz recipe for example.:
http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:traditional-mozzarella-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66
Using DVI culture we add the specified amounts once the milk reaches the temp of 90 degrees.

After the .1 pH drop, we then begin to add the rennet.

After determining the time of the gelling of the curd surface we multiply to get the floc time, and after floc time, is when we cut curds, and wait a good hour, stirring and heating the pot in order for the pH to drop to 6.1-- which would require about an hour or two.

i guess, what i am trying to figure out is in what situation could "runaway acidity" possibly ever happen if the whole process seems to be timed on the very acidification process through target pH points?

shouldnt one stay almost exactly on point almost all the time just by using a pH meter and doing exactly as they should be doing at each and every specific pH point?

Few people include bulk equivalencies or even bulk notation in their make recipes. I can understand why - it's tedious. The typical person wants to know how many teaspoons to add to the pot, not 3 different notations. I try to include bulk mother and bulk DVI notation in all my recipes.

As for the trial and error...eh, most recipes out there don't give you enough that you can just make a straight recipe. For example, most cheddar recipes out there call for Danisco's MM culture, which is a sub-optimal choice and acidity curve, and flavor profile to give a true artisan crafted cheddar. Most of the time you have to tweak stuff.

Alright, so i'm just going to have to experiment around with the percentages to see if I can get what I like.

[linuxboy]

shouldnt one stay almost exactly on point almost all the time just by using a pH meter and doing exactly as they should be doing at each and every specific pH point?

Yes, if you start out right, runaway acidity should not happen.

When could it happen? It could happen in raw milk when you have a wild strain and you don't know its pH curve, so you follow the way you usually make the cheese, but then you notice that it's 2 hours down the road and instead of the pH being 6.3, it's suddenly 6.1, and you haven't realized it until then. It's not really runaway, more so a mistake or inattention to the details.

[linuxboy]

Alright, so i'm just going to have to experiment around with the percentages to see if I can get what I like.

Or ask here . In general:

continental styles that drain at high pH and acidify in mold: 1%
most continental styles (Spanish types, Goudas, hard Italian styles): 1.5%
Cheddared curd  and pasta filata: 2%
lactic curd: 1.5-4% (there are two major methods, fast set and slow set, so amount differs)
semi-lactic curd: 1.5%-2%

The way to do it scientifically is to get the acidity curve, and figure out where you want to be in your make in terms of the pH, time, and temp, and match the starter amount to your specific make.

[humble_servant7]

Alright, so I need to learn my different cheese styles.

.. perhaps more on those later... this will be my last post of today since I am going to bed.

But, your information has been absolute PERFECT, LINUXBOY!

All of my questions have been perfectly answered and squared away!

we've offically covered the topic of what cultures are, what they do, how they affect the outcome of a cheese, the two different types, the different methods they are stored in, the manufacturers whom produce them, the associated amounts, and how it is actively involved in the make process!

the only thing left to cover is the specific strains themselves.

Whenever I go to a site such as dairyconnection.com-- I see all these numbers and latin species breakdowns, like MA40001, and MA40002, streptococcus, etc. etc.  that I just dont know WHERE to begin.

Is there a way of making and or memorizing these strains down to make it a BIt easier to compute what does exactly WHAT for WHICH function of cheese?

Just how MANY strains are there to choose from?

THIS is where it gets particularly overwhelming for me.