Author Topic: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion  (Read 1720 times)

Offline Mercedes

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Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« on: December 23, 2010, 07:37:47 AM »
Hi,
I have a Chaource recipe that calls for 8 hours ripening of the milk after the starters have been added, at 68F. Then to add 2 drops (??) of rennet and let it sit for 8 hours more at 68F.
What happened is that after the firt 8 hours ripening, the milk had already thickened, with the same texture as yougurt.
I added the rennet and let sit for the 8 hours the recipe indicates, and after this time, the milk had the exact yougurt texture. So, what failed here?
Can you guys help? Thanks!!!


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Online linuxboy

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 07:41:05 AM »
Most likely, you used too much culture, leading to a very fast acidity buildup. How much culture did you use?
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Offline smilingcalico

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 05:56:19 PM »
I agree with linuxboy. 
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Offline Mercedes

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 10:39:51 AM »
The recipe called for 1/4 teasp. MA4001/4002, 1/4 tsp P. Candidum and a pinch of geo 15 for 2 gallons of milk. Was also calling for 1/8 tsp of Aroma B, but I don't have that.

Offline iratherfly

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 01:10:51 AM »
That is a wierd recipe. Where did you get it from?
First off, you should add the rennet with the ripening culture. Secondly, MM100 would work far better in such soft delicate cheese than MM4000 series. Heck, even Flora Danica would be better.  Third, use 3-4 drops lipase (1/16th of 1 teaspoon) per gallon. Fourth, 68F is a bit too cool. It's okay to slow down acidification if indeed you intend on adding the rennet later but why? Just put them together as I suggest and crank it up to 77F.  Lastly, 8 hours sounds about right. The real way to measure it is to look at the whey that floats on top of the curd. at about 1/4" over the curd you are in the perfect acidity.  This could take 8 hours one day and 10 on another day and 6.5 on another - depending on room temp, air density, season, animal feed etc.  Best to use is non-homogenized full fat milk.

Good luck!


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Offline zenith1

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »
another variable might be the milk. Was it fresh or store bought? According to the AOC regulation it is produced normally using either but the make is probably slightly different.
Keith

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 12:29:41 PM »
The TA in 4001 is meant to ensure rapid acidification to complement the slower lactococcus variants. It can be used for fresh curd, but it will acidify faster than if you use MM or FD, like Irather said.

The recipe you have anticipates using only lactococcus in a long acidification method (meaning 1% starter bulk equivalent, to get to about a 24-hour set). It matches the activity of the starter with the make process. If your starter does not match what the recipe intended, of course it will behave completely differently.

You can either do what Irather suggested and add rennet right away (I usually do this), or use less culture and/or a slower culture, and add when the acidity drops to a pH of 6.0-6.2. It doesn't take 8 hours though. With MM, it's more like 3-4 hours usually.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2011, 02:25:41 PM »
zenith1 regardless of AOC, chaource is actually one of the easiest cheeses to make. It is very forgiving and can be done in a million different styles. Think of a simple chevre or crottin, now just apply these techniques to cow's milk instead of goats' milk. That's what you get. Super easy and very tasty. So rich that it feels like a triple creme. Of course, I agree with you that you need to use the best possible milk. If you can get local, organic, grass-fed non-homogenized your cheese will rock. Standard supermarket milk will give you mediocre results.  Also, don't jump on a milk just because it says "organic". The national brands like Horizon and Organic Valley ultra-pasteurize and homogenize their milk rather violently. It's very poor quality milk and won't produce curd at all as it is totally depleted of these enzymes and the proteins have been modified by the high heat treatment.
 
Linuxboy Ooops, I may have read it too quickly, it was a TA series and not MM, sorry. TA is thermophilic but I think that at 68F it will just yogurt that milk into something rather tangy, don't you think? Can always use a farmstead culture (mix thermo and meso) but if it's up to me, I would use MM100, maybe give it some extra gas development and buttery feeling with a pinch of MD89
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 02:33:18 PM by iratherfly »

Offline zenith1

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2011, 02:40:11 PM »
I agree Iratherfly- the best milk is quite often not what you would expect, I was only commenting on the possibility that if it were raw milk, then you have natural bacteria to factor in to the process. Natural good bacteria.
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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 03:24:48 PM »
Quote
ut I think that at 68F it will just yogurt that milk into something rather tangy, don't you think?

Depends on the TA. In Danisco's line, their 40 series will actually firm up the milk nicely without having hugely excessive acidification, not like bulgaricus or acidophilus. TA is a really interesting bacteria.
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Offline Mercedes

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 11:39:31 AM »
Wow!!!!!!!! I will take into consideration all this above. Thanks to EVERYONE very MUCH!!!!

I got the recipe in 'The Cheesemaker's Manual' of Margaret Peters-Morris (page 145). When I contacted the author about my concerns her reply was: 'The recipe is precise, it is written from my studies of lactic cheese technology in France. What you have conveyed with respect to the character of the milk after 8 hrs of ripen time is also normal. The milk was starting to set up from the action of the culture. The rennet is still added to achieve secondary coagulation to produce a curd that is possible to ladle into moulds. The curd is still relatively soft in comparison to a hard and semi firm cheese. Without knowledge in cheesemaking one would assume the results are wrong. Lactic cheese is made with a primary and secondary coagulation to achieve a soft delicate and fairly acidic cheese. The curd is then allowed to drain over a period of 16 - 24 hours to expel the whey however the final moisture in the cheese is still high.'

By the way, I buy the milk in the store (Whole Foods), as I still do not dare to work with raw milk as I have only been making cheese for one year.
Any suggestions I accept all!!!!!!
THANKS AGAIN ;D

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 12:46:18 PM »
If I can clarify and expand:

Quote
character of the milk after 8 hrs of ripen time is also normal. The milk was starting to set up from the action of the culture. The rennet is still added to achieve secondary coagulation to produce a curd that is possible to ladle into moulds.

it is decidedly NOT normal. The technology she is describing is commonly called a slow-set semi-lactic curd. Absolutely right, in this technology, the rennet is added 6-8 hours after culture addition, at a pH of 5.8-6.0. Sometimes a little lower, depending on the preference. From what you described, the milk had already fully coagulated into a thick curd, like yogurt, which points to a pH of below 4.9. This pH is too low. If you were to add rennet at this point, it would not be correct. It would firm up the curd, yes, but it is not the proper method because based on your description, you are using a fast set semi-lactic curd. In the fast set, the curd acidifies much faster, and you only need to wait 3-4 hours before adding rennet. You do not add rennet at such a low pH, when you already have a full, lactic curd set.

The third technology, as irather mentioned is to add rennet and culture at the same time. This is a third hybrid variant that can be used for both fast set and slow set technologies.
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Offline Oude Kaas

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 08:15:08 PM »
Allow me to bud in. For the longest time I added the culture and rennet at about the sam time when making a lactic style cheese. Because I only use raw milk which is obviously not homogenized, the cream always raised to the top. Before I ladled the curd into the molds, I scooped the cream off first. Therefore I always ended up with low fat cheeses. Needless to say, I am talking about cows milk here.
I have long been wondering how to overcome this problem until I read a post by LB in which he suggested adding the culture first and let the milk acidify to pH of 6.0. At this point LB suggested adding the rennet and stir the floating cream into the milk. The time it takes now for the milk to curdle should be short enough to prevent the cream to rise.
Since reading this post, I have adopted this procedure. I have found that it might take as much as 8 hours to properly acidify the milk to the desired pH. I use MA4000, about 1/8 tsp and 1/8 aroma B for 5 gallons of milk. I have managed to capture the cream into the curd tis way with the milk of Ayrshire cows and the milk of Holsteins. However, the milk of Jerseys prove more obstinate, especially this time of year.

Offline iratherfly

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 03:47:36 PM »
Hi Jos, It's been a long time! I didn't even know you make these softies!
My way of dealing with it is easy. I actually watch for the floating butterfat and instead of ladeling I scoop out curd with a ricotta basket or slotted spoon. As I do that, I aim to grab some of that wonderful butterfat on my way out, assuring these gorgeous lumps of fat in every curd filling until the mold has been topped off; assuring much butterfat chinks in between the layers of curd.

FYI, my preferred milk for those is the whole milk from Skytop brand, non-homogenized of course, gently pasteurized, organic and grass-fed -and it's local too.  I am not suggesting you replace your raw milk but for testing purposes if you want to try it - I get it at whole foods and since we live so close to each other, I am sure your Whole Foods have it too. 1 gallon + 1/8 tsp CalCl2 gives me about 2Lb. worth of cheese which is very high.

One last thing; I recommend using MM100 for this process. The MA4000 series is better for harder cheese in my opinion.
How's the creamery going? We need to catch up!

Linuxboy - I actually thought that the method of throwing everything in the milk at once and coming back the next morning to make the cheese IS the traditional French method. Am I wrong? On second thought, it's very Ron Pupil late-night infomercial Americana, "set it and forget it!".  I must try some of those TA cultures on unsuspecting sub 90F milk at once! Never ventured into it.  In my last Tomme I used TA60 and MA4001 as a farmstead culture. I did cook the curd to 100F however. Let's see how it goes.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 03:59:46 PM by iratherfly »

Offline Oude Kaas

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Re: Coagulation, Lactic, Semi - General Discussion
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 08:40:35 AM »
Thanks for your suggestions Yoav.

Sure I make these softies. In fall and winter I make a real stinker, a lactic cheese washed with a high alcohol content brine. Below is a sample. In spring and summer there are too many flying fans of this cheese so I make a dryer and not so smelling one; this being a chaource based cheese.

I have considered the technique you describe and might give it a try after all. In fact, now I come to think of it, I have been using a combination of both our techniques the last time I made a batch two weeks ago. This was 5 gallons of raw jersey milk. After final coagulation, there was still a lot of cream floating on top. You can imagine the amount of cream this time of year. While ladling the curd, I tried to capture some cream with every scoop. But because of the enormous amount, the moulds I filled first had much more cream in it. These turned out to be triple cream and are delicious.

I do like Skytop milk, I always get some when I am in Whole Foods and there is still some full fat on the shelf. This is not always the case. I am usually there towards the end of their delivery cycle.

I'll try MM100 next time.