Author Topic: Epoisse culture and drying?  (Read 16339 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Epoisse culture and drying?
« on: January 12, 2011, 12:31:39 PM »
Given an earlier discussion on lactic curds (my failed early try):

Quote from: ArnaudForestier
though still puzzled as to why the lactic acid development alone didn't eventually firm it up.


The rheology of lactic curd is determined by several dozen factors. The key ones are culture selection and milk structure. In terms of the culture, for a firmer curd, select cultures that have strains of bacteria that can form chains and whose polysaccharide structures on the cell membrane strengthen the lactic gel to give it higher firmness.

In terms of the milk, a higher casein fraction will result in a better set, as will caseins with adsorbed proteins (such as what happens during homogenization).

The rheology of semi-lactic curd (some rennet added) is similar, but with the introduction of rennet, you change the curd properties to aggregate differently. It becomes more jello-like is one way to look at it in terms of texture. And with that firmer set, the final drain curd can be better controlled by changing the acidity at which you add rennet, drain, and also by rennet amount.

To answer your question more directly, your culture selection makes for cultured buttermilk when added to milk. It behaved exactly as expected and made a thin lactic curd (summer milk does tend to be better, though). If you want a firm lactic-only curd, the culture needs to be different, and be something like Flora Danica. Acid alone will precipitate the proteins, but does not make for a thick set unless you have a high pecentage of caseins (4%+).


Timely, for me, if not for the thread, so I hope it's OK to bump the topic.  Plan to stock the cave with other, more quickly-aged cheeses beside my tomme, as I'm horribly impatient.  And though I want to concentrate on one cheese - the tomme - to perfect technique, epoisse is a fave and I'd love to do it. 

Linux, for public benefit, if you could provide any guidelines on achieving a firmer set with a strictly lactic acid culture, it would be appreciated.  You mentioned the rheology of lactic curd - I don't have the casein fraction of the milk I use (for now); regardless, would you recommend FD for an epoisse?  Any others, particularly?  Is the 4% fraction a necessary threshold for a pure lactic curd, whatever culture is used?

Also, Oude Kaas mentions a need for b. linens for fresh air, something difficult to achieve in a converted refrigerator.  This, too, a more or less limiting factor for a successful epoisse?

Finally, presuming the above can be greenlit with a current setup, would you recommend any particular length or drying protocol (I understand epoisse is particularly prone to "slip skin" effect) (I like "peau de crapaud" better.  Try selling "poussin crapaudine" to dining clients  ;D).

« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 12:54:52 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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linuxboy

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 04:19:12 PM »
Quote
regardless, would you recommend FD for an epoisse?  Any others, particularly?  Is the 4% fraction a necessary threshold for a pure lactic curd, whatever culture is used?

FD is a decent choice, yes. You need Leuconostoc, likely even more than FD has. IIRC FD is something like 10-15% Leuconostoc in the blend.

No, the 4% threshold is something that helps to make for a really great lactic curd when your bacterial mix has suboptimal polysaccharide structures on the outside of its cell walls. All that proteins sets up thick even without the bacterial help with the texture.

Quote
This, too, a more or less limiting factor for a successful epoisse?
Yes, you need to have huge oxygen availability and saturated air (98%) to get it right. Very tough to do in a fridge.

Quote
particular length or drying protocol
straight lactic curd, so you need to drain and drain and drain. Pack curd into molds, leave for 4 days, RH 70-75%, flipping every 12 hours after initially flipping every 2-3 hours to make sure there's good drainage. After 4 days the curd should set up, remove, salt, and move to racks. Racks should be in classic 70% RH, 50-52F. Takes a day or two to dry.

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I understand epoisse is particularly prone to "slip skin" effect
Point a fan toward the wheels if they're not drying enough.

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Try selling "poussin crapaudine" to dining clients
True story. One time I had early slip skin on a cheese, so I took it off, pureed it, made it into a wild mushroom sauce and served it. "Poussine aux champignons rustiques. " :) was good, actually.



Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 04:21:42 PM »
Perfect, thanks, Linux.  Will have to wait until I copy Willi's cave. ;)

That said, given the intended b. linens in an upcoming tomme, can you offer implications there?   Is the relatively greater chance of success in the tomme due to a relatively lower O2 need of the complex culture (a lower b. linens biomass and consequently, lower demand?)?

Quote
True story. One time I had early slip skin on a cheese, so I took it off, pureed it, made it into a wild mushroom sauce and served it. "Poussine aux champignons rustiques. " :) was good, actually.

Yeah, but you didn't call it "poussin crapaudine aux champignons, à la grand-mère," did you? ;D

Sounds wonderful. :) 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 04:32:10 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 04:29:30 PM »
Eh, it can be done in a fridge, but tricky. Thing is, when you salt the surface, it draws the liquid out. And if that liquid is not gone, if the surface is not prepped before you start to wash, then the slip skin happens. The humidity constancy and air movement are to achieve an even, uniform ripening. Related to slip skin, but distinct.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 04:34:36 PM »
Sorry, I'm wondering that if the issue is poor b. linens development in an epoisse due to high O2 demand and poor air exchange in a fridge, what is it that allows something like a tomme to do better, also using linens?  Does it have something to do with a relatively lower % of linens, typically, in the complex culture "mix?"
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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 04:39:25 PM »
yep, exactly. epoisses is predominantly b linens. tommes might have 30%. You actually want the lower RH for the tomme because otherwise the b linens will take over. To get that complex, mottled kind of rind, you have to stress all the flora and let them fight it out on the surface. None will be dominant, and eventually the food runs out and they die. That's the point, to get them to grow slowly and impart flavor slowly, and then form a biocrust on the rind. I don't think that's an actual word, but you know what I mean. It's not a biofilm exactly.

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 05:13:13 PM »
Great.  Perfect, as always.  Thanks again, Linux.
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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 04:44:01 PM »
Hi Arnaud,

I was wondering if you finally attempted to make an epoisses and if you did, if you could share your experience with the rest of us.

Epoisses is definitely one of my favorites (especially when you have to eat it with a spoon) and I would love to learn more about the make process.

Thanks!

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »
Helen, I'm sorry, no, I haven't yet.  I am concentrating exclusively on alpine styles, and of those, almost entirely on a serious effort to perfect Beaufort.  That said, I have made 2 batches of reblochon recently, and am really pleased to see such an early wash of linens taking place, my first experience with this.  Pav is right - amazing what can happen under the right surface conditions, and right humidity (in my cave, 95%). 

I, too, love epoisses, and as a chef, it's pretty close to my heart (a lot of my style finds itself in Burgundian cooking).  Now that I have ventured into making sticky, stinky cheeses, I am pretty keyed to keep going, so will, I'm sure take a crack at epoisses down the road.  Mont D'or will probably come first!

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 04:25:47 PM »
I remember having dinner in Dijon and ordering a steak bathed in epoisses sauce... so yummy (and stinky :p)

I think I am going to take a stab at Epoisses this weekend. I don't own a phmeter, so the goal for me will be to understand the process and how things work - it will be a small batch. When my phmeter comes in next week, I will try again more scientifically.


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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 04:31:44 PM »
Looking forward to hearing how it comes out, Helen.  Now that I have an aging container, I very well might take the leap myself.  We are a seriously stinky family... ;D
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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 10:31:49 PM »
Helen or Arnaud, could one of you direct me to a recipe for Epoisse? It's been on my list for a while, and this thread reminded me.
Thanks,
Pam

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2011, 10:55:49 PM »
Pam, I'm sorry, I don't have one, was going to try to come up with one after looking again at some books (French Cheeses, Cheese Primer, etc).  I seem to recall Oude Kaas made a really wonderful epoisses (haven't looked - is it on this thread?); he might have a good thought or two.  Good luck!

Paul
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Helen

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 08:00:52 PM »
Hi Pam!

I gave it a try yesterday and used the recipe mentioned on that blog:
http://heinennellie.blogspot.com/search/label/Epoisses

It took me more than one hour to hit the first ph mark but otherwise, everything went well. They are now draining.

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 08:03:13 PM »
Paul (sorry for confusing your nickname for your name in prior posts),

I look forward to your interpretation of the cheese. Stinky is good :) The stinkier the better actually.