Author Topic: Epoisse culture and drying?  (Read 16362 times)

mtncheesemaker

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »
Thanks, Helen. I'll give it a try. I'm afraid we're into serious stink here also!

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 09:10:18 PM »
No worries - no rhyme nor reason to my username - Arnaud's a pal from Paris, and "forestier," as I love mushrooms....probably should have just made my name my username...!

Anyway, I've decided to stay Alpine, until I feel really strong in process variables.  If stinky, and I do love stinky as well, I think it's the relatively mild funk of reblochon, then Le Mont D'Or.  That will probably change when I see the success of yourself and others with this fave's of Napoleon, of course... ;D
- Paul

ANDREARK

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2011, 07:31:51 PM »
Helen,

How is your Epoisses doing?

ak

ANDREARK

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2011, 06:14:03 PM »
This is directed to Linuxboy.  He has already been an incredible help in making me
understand just a few of the fundamentals.  A great instructor.

Now, Pav, you mention using Leuconostoc in Epoisses, could you expand on that?
I have several rather different epoisses types going now but neither of them has
the Leuconostoc in it.....Could you please give us a general 'shopping list' of ingredients
for our beloved stinky?

ak

linuxboy

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 12:55:44 PM »
Quote
Now, Pav, you mention using Leuconostoc in Epoisses, could you expand on that?
I have several rather different epoisses types going now but neither of them has
the Leuconostoc in it.....Could you please give us a general 'shopping list' of ingredients
for our beloved stinky?
The real deal, the raw milk Epoisses in France is characterized by the following LAB bacteria:
- Lactococcus lactis
- Leuconostoc mesenteroides
- Lactobacillus plantarum

I'm talking about the cheese, not the smear for the cheese. The way that bacterial succession plays out is that you use primarily L lactis for acidification, and Leuconostoc plays more of a role in contributing to body and flavor formation. The Lactobacillus grows during maturation and multiplies, contributing to flavor, and becoming about on par in number with Lactococcus.

You have picked an extremely difficult cheese. Its production, if you want to imitate it, is really tough due to the smear flora. You could get a passable imitation of the young cheese by using defined strains of L lactis and Leuconostoc. But the smear flora is composed of a complex blend of brevibacteriums and Arthrobacter (and others, but those tends to dominate). Those strains form really specific flavors as they work together.

I suggest trying to focus on the smear selection and wash process instead of culture. Because you can use a normal blue cheese culture approach (75% MM100, 25% MD, for example) and it will give you a passable result. But the smear is harder.

For the smear, you can try using a piece of existing rind from a real epoisses, or trying to recreate the blend. Using commercial culture, the options are Staph xylosum (MVA), a moderate b linens strain (just pick one in the middle, not too red), an Arthrobacter, and a Kluyveromyces for deacidification.

ANDREARK

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 11:08:48 PM »
Pav,

You've given me enough 'toys' to play with for a long time.  I think I will try using a
piece of the real deal AND using a mix like the ones you suggested.    I'll send
pretty pictures......IF they are pretty.

ak

Helen

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2011, 02:49:08 AM »
Hi ak,

Thanks for asking about the epoisses (and Paul, sorry for hijacking your thread - if my epoisses survive the next couple of weeks, they will get a thread of their own - with pictures).

They are doing *relatively* well. I followed the recipe that I posted earlier. First time I used a phmeter but I found that it came handy since it took me two hours to hit the ph markers (instead of one). The curd set beautifully compared to what I was used to. I left them to drain for three days and finished the drying with the fan.

However, the cheeses are very fragile (as expected) and it is difficult to wash them without feeling that I leave a lot of epoisses on my wash cloth. They became quite sticky yesterday and took a yellowish tinge. And they smell delicious.

All in one, a good experience even though I am not sure anything will come out of it.

Oude Kaas

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2011, 02:33:35 AM »
Hi Helen, how are your epoisses doing? Any tastes yet, pictures? I am very curious.

I have been trying to make something like epoisses for a long time. I have never come close yet although I have had very encouraging comments from people very familiar with this cheese. And indeed, some batches were better than others.

But I finally have come to accept that what I make is an entirely different cheese not worthy said name. And distinguish it even further away, I washed the last batch with a mixture of madeira and gin.

iratherfly

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Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2011, 04:27:25 AM »
Hi neighbor, want to do one together? Sounds like a fun project.

I want to also make one with Japanese plum wine. I know, there is no such thing as Japanese cheese and terroir-wise the idea is ridiculous, but I think it will be quite good. Heck, I'll decorate the thing with a salted Japanese Ume.

Oude Kaas

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2011, 01:11:08 AM »
Sounds like fun indeed. What side of the river would you propose?

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2011, 08:16:14 PM »
I don't mind your side at all. I am 2 minutes from the L train and that's 5-6 more minutes to your neck of the woods. Besides, I would love to see your BK cave and a washed rind cheese always does better with lots of friends around. My cave is too full.  Let me know and I'll being some Sky Top milk. Thinking of making some St Marcellin type cheese this weekend. Will attempt to age half the batch traditionally and the other half in plum wine.  Should work well with its flavor profile.

Oude Kaas

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 02:06:10 AM »
Sorry to say, I lost my cave under the Brooklyn sidewalk. I am building another one, deeper into Brooklyn. Will be moving the cheeses this week.

I have never made cheese from store bought milk, aka pasteurized. Oops, lie, for my first batch I drove to Connecticut to get store bought raw milk. With all due respect to Sky Top, not sure wether I want to start. I am spoiled...

Going upstate next week for a few days to do some construction at the creamery. Could possibly bring some extra raw Jersey milk back for you to play with if you please. Would sure make some nice St Marcellin.

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2011, 02:16:34 AM »
Sounds great! When is a good time to visit the Brooklyn cave?

I have to say that Sky Top has surpassed some of the raw milk I purchased in terms of quality.  I just made some St. Marcellin this past weekend and I used half the batch to create some totally different cheese. Two wheels washed in plum wine, then 4 mini wheels aged over fumes from a bath of Calvados. This is going to be truly interesting.

Oude Kaas

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2011, 02:27:07 AM »
I guess I wasn't clear. As said, I lost the space where the old cave was. The new cave is going to be in a house my wife and I recently bought in Crown Heights. House is still under renovation, not much to visit, we haven't moved yet. The cheeses will be living there alone for a while.

arkc

  • Guest
Re: Epoisse culture and drying?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2011, 04:17:04 AM »
Helen,

Checking up on you, or rather, on your Epoisses types.  They should be almost a month old
by now.

I have 2 batches that are both almost 2 months.  I used different recipes and they are
very different.  One is VERY orange and almost hard.  The other is a little larger more pale
orange and more delicate.  The second one actually 'leaked' a little so I am trying to toughen
up the rind by some gentle brushing.  BUT, I got a little taste of the one that leaked and
I am very happy with its progress.  I've tried a few others previously but they didn't
make it this far. Actually they did, they just never showed any B. Lin color or aroma.
I am using a different smear now.

Did you notice that the cultures you used actually had 2 of the 3 LAB Bacteria that
Linuxboy told us about?  The third (Plantarum), I couldn't find anywhere other that
in the Kefir.  I wonder if he (Pav) knows where to acquire it.

Next time I start a couple more batches (next month), I would like to use the recipe
you used..  Are you pleased with it still, and how delicate, or gooey, or hard, or smelly are
the rinds?

Please let me know how y'all (you and cheeses) are doin? 

annie