Author Topic: Bad mold?  (Read 5456 times)

Dgarner23

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Bad mold?
« on: January 13, 2011, 02:01:13 AM »
Okay, i am obviously new at this.  I have made my second renet cheeses ( tomme ) recently.  I have innoculated it and washed it once with a 2% Brine solution with some tomme rind pulverized in it.  I went to wash the cheese for the second time and noticed some greyish mold growing on it already ( only one day after my first wash ).   I thought this a little soon for my wash to already be working so I was afraid it was not one of the molds I "planted".  So as I read up, I see there are some molds that are dangerous on cheese.  So how do I know if my mold is good or bad?  How do I control the bad but promote the good mold?

Cheese Head

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 01:16:35 PM »
Dgarner23, grey mould is a new one for me, our Wiki: Surface Defects, Mould gives some ideas on removing unwanted mould, but nothing on grey. Can you advise milk source/type and a picture would help.

mtncheesemaker

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 02:35:04 PM »
I have had this happen when the cheese itself or the aging container was too wet. If this is the case with yours, I would make sure to wipe up any visible moisture from the container.
If you pick off the bits of mold with a knife tip and keep washing with your brine, it should go away. (Assuming moisture is causing the condition.)
Pam

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 07:05:59 PM »
Hey John, I washed it off before I got a pic.  I think it was Cat's Hair mould?  Anyway I'll post a pic if it comes back.  I just re- washed in the puree and brine. 

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 07:09:09 PM »
Yeh Pam, I intentionally keeping it very humid and warm ( 55 deg F and 95% humid )at first to induce mold growth, like Tomme de Savoie.  I'm just worried about bad vs good mold.  In a couple of days I'll reduce temp to 50 and humidity to below 90 to let rind form and cheese develop.

linuxboy

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 07:38:52 PM »
can you take a pic? many tommes in the savoie have gray molds.

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 08:28:49 PM »
Here is the mold coming back.  Still small

iratherfly

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 08:42:05 AM »
This cheese seems overly moist, is it? Have you dried it properly before putting in the cave? If so, did you wait a week before beginning the wash regiment?

If you did all right, then I suspect this could be contamination. Was everything properly sanitized? Was there other food being made in the kitchen at the same time? (even dough of bread rising in the kitchen can contaminate cheese). Did you keep super clean hands whenever dealing with the cheese? Did someone else touch it? Was there a pet in the kitchen?

How did you salt the cheese?  These pathogenic molds usually have hard time competing with the inoculated cheese molds if there is enough salt.

What bacteria did you inoculate into the milk and rind wash?

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 03:45:51 PM »
I did not dry the cheese for a week before washing the rind. 

I have made the mistake of trying to make cheese from the forum.... no real book or set of complete instructions.  Piecing together things.  Since I have made soft cheese, yogurt, wine, etc.... for years, I thought I could just get online for some ideas and do it.  I now have the 100 Easy Cheese book where all the steps are in one place and I see what I did wrong.

My question now is, to save, should I wash in heavy brine now or let it dry first, or what?

iratherfly

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 07:17:17 PM »
I can feel your pain. Making cheese can be frustrating. This forum however has some very good formulas for cheese. If you have tried Linuxboy's recipe (or my modifications to it) you are likely to come up with a full proof basic Tomme that you can use as a platform to age it in a variety of ways.

200 Easy Cheese Recipes (I assume that's the one you have) like most other books leave you with recipes and not much of the concept of what a cheese should be and why. It lists times to wait instead of flocculation multipliers and don't explain much. Don't get me wrong; it's a wonderful book and I use it to consult me on some cheese formulas but if you really want to understand what you are doing and why so that you can come up with your own solutions and cheese I suggest American Farmstead Cheese.

Tomme is a very liberal cheese. In fact it's not one cheese but a whole genre of cheese. It could be moldy or smooth, chalky or buttery, soft or semi hard, goat's sheep or cow.  There are a million ways to make it and as long as its round, semi soft and you make sure to cook or wash the curd slightly and then build up acidity in the press - you have a Tomme. I feel that Linuxboy's recipe is more traditional and easy than the 3 Tommes on 200 Easy Cheese Recipes so give it a try!

What do you think went wrong in your make?

When I asked you all these questions about the salting and which bacteria you've used I did it in order to devise a plan for you to save your cheese. Many molds will just die off on time. Some can be controlled with reduction in humidity and some can occur when water beads from yuor aging container drip on the cheese. Some molds will die off when you rub salt into them and if you have local spotting you can use white vinegar but this seems to be a spread out issue.  Please tell us what bacteria you have used and how did you salt your cheese. It may be salvageable!

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 08:30:11 PM »
I was not meaning to say anything negative when I said I tried to make without a book. It's just that the info is all spread out. How to make the cheese in one area, how to age in one, and how to wash rind in another. Gets confusing trying to piece it together.
Here's what I did. Used recipe at http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66, brined in 20 % solution for 7 hrs, let air dry at room temp for about 18 hrs turning twice, put in cave @ 70% humid 55 deg for a day, then dunked in a 3% brine with purée of the rind of a tomme de savior (following guidance from Linux boy) and raised the humidit of cave to as close to 90% as I can. The morning after first dunk, I saw suspect mold

Dgarner23

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 09:41:59 PM »
As far as what went wrong?  Well I didn't innoculate, I was gonna try just brining.  And maybe I had the unwanted mold in my environment so not letting it dry long enough before putting in cave let it take hold before I washed with desired solutions?

So from here?

iratherfly

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 09:18:27 AM »
I didn't think you were negative, I just heard your frustration. The recipe you have used is the same as the one Linuxboy posted on the Tomme thread here. Note that he is the author of the one you pointed out here.

I would say you should have definitely waited for it to dry for a day or two after the dunk. You should have also inoculated the Tomme de Savoie rind mash into the milk too.

The issue could be also that the Tomme rind itself was contaminated first in your fridge. Remember that you are putting it in an environment that is made to grow bacteria. Take the Tomme rind; it has low bacterial activity as it it quite old and already went through life and death of much of its bacteria. If you have another contaminating bacteria on it from some fresh food in your fridge or the shop and you put that in your cheese, chances are that that contaminating bacteria will have higher activity than the rind you wish to replicate. What happens then is that that contaminating bacteria eats up all the nutrients and multiply and the rind bacteria just starves to death.  However, I am leaning towards the basic thought that you just had too much moisture because you didn't let the cheese dry enough.

The other issue is in the action of dunking. You started off brining at 20% which is extremely salty. then you dunked it at 3%. When you do that, you deplete the cheese out of the salt you just put into it. (how long did you dunk it for?)  In my opinion it would make much more sense to smear the cheese with this new compound you have made and not to dunk it.  Once salt levels go down, the protection from pathogens break. It can even help a few of them to grow.

My advice: Dry it properly before putting in the cave. Use an aging container if you haven't done so yet. This mold may be coming from your cave so clean it up (the container will further help insulate it from the cave atmosphere and help you maintain steady humidity).  Smear it with the Tomme rind compound you have made once every 2-3 days and rub it with kosher salt. Turn the cheese once a day. Make sure the cheese is on something that allows air to flow to its bottom (a mesh of some sort, which is elevated over the bottom of the container so there is plenty of air under the mesh and cheese as well as above). If you put enough of that rind and salt rub it, this rind will develop and eventually starve off the pathogen. These pathogens usually don't live as long as the rind bacteria and will die within 45 days or so. I assume you plan on aging this thing for at least 3-4 months if not 6 so you should be fine.  If this fails, you can always switch plans and age it differently. Wash it with beer, dunk it in wine brine or a balsamic brine 2-3 times (drying for 2 days in between) and then vacuum seal it for 90 days etc.  Then just repeat the Tomme de Savoie experiment again on your next batch.

I must also say that buying the proper bacteria instead of hacking a cheese will prevent such accidents in the future and is worth the money you will spend on good quality milk that has wasted. This bacteria is easy to find (I believe you need Geo 15, KL 71 and Mycodore, with MA4000 series starter - all stuff that is useful in many other cheeses so have it at home!). Using your own bacteria will also give you predictable control and ability to troubleshoot and improve specific qualities of the cheese - and eventually consistently replicate your successes

Keep me posted! In any event, do not despair. Everyone in this forum had their share of bad batches, accidents and mishaps. It's the only way to improve your instincts and cheese quality. It's worth it! I swear.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 10:19:24 PM »
Excellent guidance, iratherfly.

I'm sure there are other noobs/lurkers (like myself  ;) ) who benefit from your input.

Thanks, here's a cheese.

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

iratherfly

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Re: Bad mold?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 04:36:39 AM »
Good to know Boofer. Especially given my early morning "just woke up" terrible English.  Woke up early to make cheese and now I have 11 little goaties draining.

By the way, I don't think you are a newbie anymore. You have been at it for a while, haven't you?