Author Topic: a few hard won tips (Read 6581 times)

Dinerdish · « **on:** January 14, 2011, 11:33:21 PM »

there seems to be an ongoing direct ladle vs pre-drain discussion here. I come down on the direct ladle side. It does take longer to drain, you must flip enough times to ensure even draining and keep the cheese out of the large amounts of whey but it is such a delicate curd, the less handling the better. In the photo you can see my favorite aging box for small Chaource. It's a Tupperware box meant to hold ice cubes and came with that rack. Unfortunately not wide enough for Camemberts. The cheeses in the back were just dry salted. In the background you can see what I drained them in. I use little glass custard dishes to elevate the molds. The red thing is a cheap cutting board I cut to fit, on the bandsaw. On top of that is some food grade plastic matting. I drained these little cheese for 2 days!
I wonder if the problems people have had with curd oozing through their mold holes stems from not letting the curd set long/firm enough. The flocculation factor for mould ripened cheese is longer than other styles and with Chaource the very long ripening/setting phase is very easy to rush. Even with Camembert, where I do cut the curd I wait pretty long, till its a very clean break! Just my unscientific observations.

Dinerdish

iratherfly · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2011, 09:13:38 AM »

I think people get used to rennet cheese that takes 3 hours to make and drains overnight; then they move to semi-lactic and don't have the feeling that their cheese need 2 more days of draining and drying. Pre Draining however doesn't just shortens that period; by shortening the period it gives you less acidic and less tangy cheese. You can do that in long draining if you drain days 2 and 3 in the cold cave and not room temp.
How long do you age your Chaource? What mold did you use for it?

Dinerdish · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2011, 03:15:38 AM »

I sometimes I just use PC but sometimes I add a whiff of geo. I don't have trouble with the PC blooming so I will add geo to see if I can tell the difference. Maybe I don't control enough other factors but I've never been able to see much difference, with or without. how long do I age my Chaource? No set time, about 3 or 4 weeks. What I really love is when they get to the point that they feel like roasted marshmallows, you know,when they've got that burned skin and the inside is molten? When the cheeses feel really soft, you cut into them and the whole inside is gooey and very spreadable. Maybe I've let them go beyond 4 weeks actually. I'm coming to realize I need to keep better records. You know what I'm going to do with the next batch? Ladle half the batch directly into the molds and drain the other half. A little side by side experiment!

Dinerdish

iratherfly · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2011, 09:35:49 AM »

Oh yes, they are so good and creamy! If you make them small, try testing one at day 14 (14 in the cave = 15-17 since make). It's like a cross between triple cream and whipped cream cheese. Fantastic! A master affinuer had taught me to age them on hay (in the aging container, start at about day 4 instead of the plastic mesh). It's amazing. Helps wick out moisture and give the rind an amazing character. The entire cheese gets this lingering grassy aromatic character, reminiscent of Saint Nectaire. Try it!

Some photos of different experiment. The chaource type Mashu-Mashu is my own development with a very unique rind inoculated and sprayed, this is a 30 day cheese but it's a complete departure from Chaource, only the method remains. Just to show you the hay

Dinerdish · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2011, 02:01:16 PM »

Hey,
I love the hay idea! Details, do you know if it really matters if it is hay or can it be straw? It looks like you sort of stitched it together, is that so it will lay flat enough? Or do you reuse it, no can't imagine that. Do you change it during aging or leave the same batch the whole time? I'm definitely going to try that but not with the half and half batch.

Dinerdish

Dinerdish · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2011, 02:12:49 PM »

Oh yeah, do you sterilize it? And how? Just plain old,destined for farm animal, hay or what?
Thanks,

Dinerdish

Buck47 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2011, 04:31:55 PM »

Excellent Photos iratherfly,

I have questions much like the ones Dinerdish has asked. Have stacks of Oat Straw every season as the hay fields are planted. No shortage on straw here, but can't see myself breaking open a bail and chucking cheese on top before finding out a few more details. I'll await your responce to Dinerdish.

O' ya one another thing Ira

--- I follow all your post and find them most informative. Thanks for passing on your knowledge here on the forum.

Regards: john

PS: Dinerdish, I don't believe that is hay, looks to be some type of straw, not sure if it's from oats, wheat, barley ect. I'm thinking some type of wheat straw.

iratherfly · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2011, 09:29:37 AM »

The straw I use is the same one used in cheese caves and cheese shops the world over. It is made in France and I have a local affineur selling it to me - he has boxes of that stuff. I do believe that this is buckwheat but I don't see why other types cannot be used. Frankly, I don't know the difference between hay and straw. Is hay more grass and green? If so that I am using straw, but I have seen many Italian cheeses aging in green grassy hay too.

Here are some photos from cheese shops/market in Paris that I posted a while back here. You can notice these mats in many of the cheese displays: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4019.msg30669.html
Here are photos I took at Murray's Cheese aging caves under New York City. As you can see, all of the soft ripened, young, semi lactics and some of the Tommes are also aging here on these straw mats: http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4590.0.html

To use the straw, do not put the fresh wet cheese on it. Make sure it drains first. I only use it beginning at day 3, 4 or 5. The straw does not need to be sanitized - that would defeat the purpose. Aging on straw takes advantage of its great moisture control and its anti-pathogenic properties. Aging on straw or wood shelves is very common and traditional. One of the nicest things is that some of the cheese bacteria and microorganisms take a hold on the wood and live there. It then helps the next batches of cheese age.

I do replace them once they begin molding (Usually its the twine that keeps them tied together that begins to mold with blue mold).

I think this answers all of your questions?

By the way John, thanks for the compliments. I have gotten tremendous help on this forum not too long ago so I just pass what I can onto others. Luckily for me, I have came to know several world class affineurs, fromagiers and cheesemakers; all of whom have been teaching me time honored techniques and theories that are not found on many book or this forum, so if I can put it out there to make your cheese better or save you from looming wasteful and frustrating disasters, why not? (Eh, well - as long as I have time...)

Buck47 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 17, 2011, 02:35:52 PM »

Quote from: iratherfly on January 17, 2011, 09:29:37 AM

The straw I use is the same one used in cheese caves and cheese shops the world over. It is made in France and I have a local affineur selling it to me - he has boxes of that stuff. I do believe that this is buckwheat but I don't see why other types cannot be used. Frankly, I don't know the difference between hay and straw. Is hay more grass and green? If so that I am using straw, but I have seen many Italian cheeses aging in green grassy hay too.

Hay and straw are two different things. Straw is a byproduct from growing hay.

Some type of cover crop/nurse crop is used when planting a new hay field*.

The cover crop is some type of grain. Around here oats are the most common.

Planting of a hay field is often done in the fall or early spring. By mid to late summer the oats have matured and are ready to harvest.

This means, when the grass/alfalfa seeds are planted, that oat seeds are planted at the same time. Since alfalfa - clover - Timothy takes longer to get started, the oats sprout up and give the alfalfa plants protection for a while. The grain crop (Oats) are harvested in the summer and the remaining plants (hay) continues to mature, as the years pass the percentage of grass to alfalfa will rise, as the grass multiplies and the alfalfa slowly diminishes. A hay field will last three to four years. The field is then planted in a rotation of beans one year and corn the next - then back into hay for four or five years. It's called rotation. Each crop pulls different nutriments from the soil at the same times it replenishes chemicals removed by the previous crop. For instance beans leave the soil high in nitrogen, which the corn needs to grow. A hay crop replenishes the soil making it ready for beans. Hence a three crop rotation.

The stem that has held the grain (Oats - Buckwheat - Rye -ect) is the straw, which is bailed and used for beading. (It's not a food)

As you can see in the photo below, the Oats/straw are being harvested and the low green plants left in the field is the hay crop.

*A hay crop is made up from several plant types. Different combinations and percentages are sold depending on what one is using the feed for. Quality Dairy hay is normally the most expensive & considered the best grade( having the highest percentage of Alfalfa), next is beef cattle and last is horses ( good horse hay is mostly grass - also called grass hay). Each have a place as the animals needs are all different.

70% Alfalfa
15% Red Clover
15% Timothy

Dinerdish · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2011, 04:55:35 PM »

Buck47,
Thanks for the lowdown on hay. I thought those mats looked like straw to me, hence the question.

Iratherfly,
So you are buying those straw mats already put together from some supplier? I wonder if they sanitize them some way? That does make me hesitate to just pull out some random handful from any bale of hay, even a newly baled one that hasn't been sitting around in a barn for a while. I wouldn't leave cheese in an aging room on any old piece of wood either. I am an amateur woodworker and I do plan to make some racks for a future basement cheese cave but I will use wood that is freshly cut and sanded (maybe planed would be even better) so there isn't contamination from say the sawmill yard or the boot of the guy who stacked it on the truck, etc. I don't quite know how to control for that kind of contamination (not to mention animal manure) with straw. I still really like the idea of adding that grassy flavor. Any thoughts on that, Buck47?

Dinerdish

Buck47 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2011, 06:59:57 PM »

Dinerdish,

I've been thinking of going with wood shelving in my converted root cellar / cheese cave. Think hard maple would be my first choice.

As to using grass I'm not sure what I would do about that.

I do know I would have no hesitation using straw that came from shocks that had been stacked and allowed to sweat (using the old drying process). Not sure I would use the hay that comes out from the back of a combine.

My instincts tell me, people today have become so estranged and distant from traditional methods we have lost the connection on what does and does not work using historical natural ways.

What's the worst that could happen? The cheese runs wild with molds, or even worse case I end up making myself sick for a few hours.

I remember the first time I was served canned meat for dinner at my Amish neighbors. Thoughts of being doubled over in pain as I was being taken to the hospital 15 miles away in bouncing buggy flashed through my mind. Well ... it turned out to be some of the best meat I have ever eaten. Have 15 jars in my pantry as I type this.

This response may draw howls of protest. So be it.

Regards: john

Wonderful link .. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4590.0.html

iratherfly: I have many questions I would like to ask you about setting up my cave & selecting what type of cheese to make. Thanks again

Dinerdish · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2011, 08:40:16 PM »

The range of opinions surrounding this issue is wide and interesting. It should probably be a new thread. I'm not a control freak by any means but I just want to limit the number of variables.I worked for a small commercial smokehouse, making smoked trout and salmon mousse. We had a problem with mold growing in the sealed containers just before the expiration date was reached. I tried everything I could think of to solve the mystery of where the contamination was coming from. It was intensely frustrating! Finally it turned out to be the manufacturer of the bulk cream cheese we used ( in 30 lb blocks ) was somehow allowing tiny shreds of cardboard to get into the cheese. We switched brands, even though they assured us the problem was fixed and the problem went away. It is much easier to diagnose a problem when there are fewer unfamiliar steps. I really hate that feeling of frustration! I guess that's why I've made the same mold ripened style of cheese for so many weeks. I want to get to know one kind of cheese and feel the nuances of the process before barging on to something else. So now maybe I'll throw caution to the wind and try a batch on straw. Anyway, thanks for listening! I don't have anyone around here to talk cheese with....

Dinerdish

george · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2011, 12:25:23 PM »

Buck47, I now have the phrase "a cheese grows in Brooklyn" stuck in my head ...

Soozletew · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2011, 07:46:40 PM »

My only caveat about putting straw under cheeses has to do with moldy straw and what it could do to a beautiful little cheese. I would suggest giving any straw from a bale a good sniff test before putting cheese on it. I've encountered enough moldy hay and straw here at farm to give me a fairly discerning schnozz.

iratherfly · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2011, 05:57:44 PM »

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread; I guess I marked it read and never replied.

There is a reason that in the history of cheese it was always aged on wooden shelves, hay and straw; not on stone, iron or plastic. It just works better. There is a great heirloom of bacteria that keeps living in the wood and improve the cheese. When used over and over again, it also assists in the growth of rind on new cheese. Additionally, what is often considered pathogenic to plants can be quite magical in cheese. European cheesemakers cherish their generations-old wood shelves and fight aggressively to stop new EU regulations regarding plastic and stainless steel. While plastic and stainless steel bring great safety to the cheesemaking (and food production in general), they are the wrong choice in aging cheese. It's like aging wine in plastic barrels. Makes no sense.

Cheese is a complex culturing process. Aging them in a sterile environment would make them less safe and give them less character and poorer rind development. If you can't promote the bacteria you WANT to grow on your cheese, then competing bacteria/pathogens will take over the cheese.

I wouldn't worry about mold too much. You can wipe or wash wood shelves (some bacteria will survive it) and you can also replace the straw - it's cheap and abundant. Some of that mold is actually stuff you want in your cheese.

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