a few hard won tips

[Soozletew]

Sooooo, should I NOT be sanitizing my bamboo mats in my dishwasher?   

The point about modern day folks being out of touch with the methods and means of their ancestors is well put and well taken.  I'm in the process of buying a little house that has a partial basement that appears to be well and truly dry, that is, I've discerned no whiff of moldy odor during several visits, and I've thought of setting up a cheese cave there.  Would I do well to do some sort of mold test first?

[iratherfly]

Sorry it took so long to reply, I was out for a while.

Definitely don't sanitize them (I would use other wood, perhaps natural straw too. Think European and not too aromatic. Spruce for example). The dishwasher may actually cause some very harsh detergents to soak in the wood and your moisture will expel them out of the bamboo and with the help of the cheese salt osmosis - drag these chemicals in trace amounts right into the heart of your cheese. The only way to sanitize these if you think it's time for cleaning is to simply boil them for 10 minutes.  Do not use spray sanitizer like StarSan on them either.

Congrats on the new place! I am not sure what you are trying to test. Your cheese cave should be in an area that is not too expose to the elements (sun, rain, cold, hot) and can be easily temperature and humidity controlled. You can build your own also or divide it to chambers for different types of cheese with bricks or clay. To maximize sanitation, make sure this is not in the vicinity of animals (hair, dander, droppings and the flies they bring) bread baking, beer making or other yeasty activities, construction or chemicals/gas. Better air quality makes better aging cheese. What area is your new place at?

[Dinerdish]

The topics on this board have caused my approach to this cheese to evolve. I am making a more distinct Chaource as opposed to a minor, younger, variation on a Camembert type.  I now, , come down on the pre-drain side for this cheese. I still like to ladle directly for Coulommier, for example. Thanks, Iratherfly, for your insights. I was reading an earlier post where you mentioned adding Danisco PLA. I'm making a supply order and I'm looking forward to trying that. I am still conflicted about the contamination aspects of ripening on straw. I think I'm going to wait till there's fresh straw in the summer. I'm going to talk to the farmer I get my milk from. They use organic practices, although they aren't strict enough to be certified. That way I can feel more comfortable about how it was handled.

Dinerdish

[iratherfly]

I am not sure how you turn a Chaource into a Camembert or a Coulommier (which is really a glorified brie with more focused flavor). Chaource is semi-lactic cheese that can be ready in as little as 2 weeks. Camembert is full rennet-coagulated and needs 50% longer to age.  I might have misunderstood you.

As for the straw - Don't fear it! Also, don't use fresh straw; it needs to be dry.  The French straw is MADE SPECIFICALLY to be used for storage and aging of cheese and it will only help the cheese.

[Dinerdish]

By fresh straw I mean a newly made batch from this coming summer, not green straw immediately cut from the field. And I admit saying a Chaource is like a Camembert is not very articulate.  I realize by not draining this cheese I was ending up with a less dense body with a more, mmmm, slippery texture. I was letting it age longer to get to a smoother,more spreadable, less cakey and fresh tasting, paste. Having never eaten an actual Chaource I was just assuming what came out of following the recipe was a Chaource. And really it is such a simple, forgiving cheese that a wide range of results are to be expected. So now I understand that all mold ripened cheeses won't have that smooth, almost gelatinous texture, like a Camembert.

Dinerdish

PS did you see the post about the Fancy Food Show?

[iratherfly]

Right. The easiest way to describe Chaource is as Crottin made of cow's milk.... It's quite magical and creamy but the semi-lactic process gives it more of a flaky, cheesecake like texture and less of that creamy Camembert texture. That being said, you do get an amazing creaminess out of regular milk and people most often think it has cream or even double or triple cream contents but it's not even close. Do this with goat's milk (crottin) and the results are entirely different: chalky and tangy cheese.

If you want to drain it less than normal, you are risking slip skin and the effect of cheese that matures on the outside way faster than the inside (it will literally ammoniate just below the rind while the center of the cheese is still not even mature enough to eat - a bit like frying frozen chicken, browning the outside while the center is still frozen). You can counter these effects simply by aging it in colder temperature and less humidity (think 45F at 85%RH instead of 55F at 90%RH) It will take longer to age but that's okay. It will give the enzymes time to work on breaking down the proteins thoroughly (which gives the cheese the creaminess) before the surface bacteria ammoniates it.  Try it.

As for the straw - when I first did it, I tried half of a cheese batch with it just in case I screw it all up. That half was full of these grassy St. Nectaire aroma and flavor notes. It was night and day. It is especially felt in chaource and crottin, though lately I've been doing italian style washed rinds that also benefit from it. I actually have a few pieces of dry straw wedged into the rind on one of them now and I can't take it out (the rind grew on top of it!) On second look I thought this was actually quite charming and rustic looking.

[Dinerdish]

Frying frozen chicken, I love it!

 Is there a mutually agreed upon vocabulary regarding the tastes of cheese? I wish I were more fluent, it would make these discussions more understandable. We might be talking at cross purposes with the straw thing. I look forward to trying ripening on straw. I just want to know where it came from. I mean if it's moldy you can smell it. If it grows bad mold while cheese is on it, toss it out and fix the cheese or toss it too. At a gallon batch at a time it wouldn't be a disaster. What I want to avoid is stuff like pesticide residue, leaking farm machine fluids, highway dust and runoff, some farmers even spread sludge, treated solids from wastewater treatment plants, on pasture. I'm sure the straw destined for the French cheese industry is treated differently than the bale of straw I can buy from Southern States.
So I want some straw with a pedigree!

Dinerdish

[linuxboy]

Is there a mutually agreed upon vocabulary regarding the tastes of cheese?

Only for cheddar from MaryAnn Drake. She wrote a book all about her methodology. And even then there are differences among continents for describing the same underlying chemical formulation. The common approach is to use flavor vectors according to key flavor compound types: terpenes, esters, alcohols, ketones, aldehydes, lactones, etc.

[iratherfly]

There are some agreed upon terms for cheese qualities. There are also a few common charts. My friend Elizabeth Bland ("The Cheese Mistress") uses one in her publications which is pretty good (I'll call and ask her to send me that).

I also suggest to take a look at Max McCalman's book The Cheese Plate. It has a whole chapter on tasting. Great book overall. Max is the Maître Fromager at Artisanal cheese. I have taken one of his classes and while I must say I don't always agree with him on tastes, the guy is one of the most knowledgeable authority on cheese in this country.

Also, there are some charts used by the culture manufacturers.  Here is one used by CHR Hansen to compare the flavor effects of their 3 most popular Penicillium Roqueforti cultures:

[Dinerdish]

Thanks so much Iratherfly. That chart is very helpful to me. It's a structure to organize and analyze what I am tasting without going into the underlying chemistry. Of course it still doesn't address the difference between what I might think of as, say, mushroomy and what you might say. I think that will come from tasting more and more different cheeses and and developing a palette. Here's a cheese!

And, guess what, I found a source for those rye straw mats! If you go to the forum's list of supply stores and look at France, there is Coquard, a web store. It has all kinds of interesting, drool inducing, cheese items, all described in charmingly quirky English, including rye straw mats. Everything is listed as"price on request" and I don't know what the minimum quantity is or the shipping cost, but there it is.

Dinerdish

[Dinerdish]

By the way, Linuxboy, I didn't mean to dis you by saying I was glad to not have to go into the underlying chemistry. As you might assume from my signature line "cheese, dairy alchemy", I approach this stuff from an experiential direction. I don't speak chemistry well enough for that kind of analysis sink in until it can answer a specific, concrete question I have. But I sure am glad you are there!


Dinerdish

[iratherfly]

Sure thing. I think that some qualities such as "ammoniated", "Alkali", "sweet", "Buttery" or "Nutty" Etc. are very universal. If you are not sure if something is mushroomy, taste 3 cheeses that claim that and see what they have in common. It's really about a feeling. Grassy will feel like the smell of fresh cut grass; barnyardy is overly grassy to the point that you begin sensing manure-like aromas. Another way to look into it is to eat cheese with actual mushroom, nuts, sweets, greens, citrus and see what flavors are enhanced or disappear when you pair them together.  I would also suggest a cheese class by someone good. When you are in a venue with 20 other people and they all say "citrucy" on a specific cheese it will help you confirm what is the universal opinion of Citrucy. This will help you describe your cheese to others in a manner that you want them to understand it rather than with your opinion.  (For example, many people call Humboldt Fog "Citrucy". In my opinion it's just tangy but if I have similarly tangy cheese I will describe it to others as "citrucy" because that's the flavor they expect under this definition so it's universally correct.)

[Soozletew]

My new (to me!) house is near Atlanta in a little artistic community of 1940's era cottages.  It's the first place I've bought in over 30 years, and the paperwork is astounding in its minutiae.  I'm doing a little renovation here and there, as the place is in very good shape.  The cheese caves will be in refrigerators--one a dorm size, the other a small kitchen size.  Both will fit nicely in the basement, along with a freezer.  I'd thought I might just use open shelves, but I don't want to chance ruining the cheese through inadvertent contamination, nor do I wish to advertise a free meal for any field mice or raccoons that might wander into the area.

Sorry to've been away for so long.  This house business requires much time and energy.  The closing at the end of this month can't come too soon!

[iratherfly]

Congrats on the new house. Sounds ideal. I am jealous; cannot even dream of such space in any Manhattan NY apartment (and mine is above average here)