Author Topic: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?  (Read 7952 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 07:07:18 PM »
Yes, I've posted it before.

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5691.msg41618.html#msg41618

Not sure what you're asking for the first question, exactly. Population optima in terms of CFUs/g per lb of milk for each cheese style and how that translated to bulk %, DCUs, and Us?


LOL - (well, not really, as I wasted your time...sorry :-[) - but I just printed off the 2 pages of the "head spinning thread" before coming back to this thread.  Thanks, and sorry I didn't post first.  (Or search, first). 

Yep, on the question, I'm sure I'm being too precious.  Trying to think on creating an excel spreadsheet that would do something of what I did with brewing - ascribe a population density for different beers (e.g., with Kolsch, you actually can shoot for not only a proper strain, but a proper inoculation rate to encourage more budding/doubling of yeast, and consequently more desired by-products of aerobic respiration alone; whereas with a bitter, sought a different population multiplier, etc.).   So, envisioning an ideal population density for, say, tomme, beaufort, reblochon - based on early pH targets, pH change time sequences and their effect on finished cheese - I was wondering on a way to plug in these population optima; gain a useful estimation of DVI population densities (say, presuming a certain viability dropoff over time, a certain population estimate/gram; then, a presumption of population densities for the bulk starter equivalent, so I could get pretty close to achieving the desired optima, and lock in consistency.

Don't know if I'm expressing this properly, and if so, whether it's being too precious or unachievable...realize such a desire may be counterproductive without a means to count, microscopically, and proceed accordingly.  Which moves it into the "precious" category, for the desired artisanal, farmstead operation.

Edit:  Having read through the "spinning," the Danisco and CHR Hansen equivalents thread, and sitting down this afternoon to the Fox material, I see it's all there, just have to organize the material so I can digest it. 

Sorry if I've only added to the complication or confusion, all, not my intent; just trying to get more rigorous in achieving somewhat replicable results in a farmstead environment.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 07:24:17 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 08:47:05 PM »
OK, quick and dirty, let's see if I've made a spreadsheet properly - foregoing actual counts, which is impossible, but converting using bulk basis DCU.

From an example tomme recipe (thanks, Buck47), I've seen a DCU bulk basis of 2.5 DCU/500 lbs milk; saying to double it, if using pasteurized milk.  So, assuming 5 DCU/500 lbs milk.

For a 4 gallon batch of cow's milk, I'm coming up with 2.27% bulk equivalent (seems high, but then, this is double the amount, per the instruction on pasteurized milk), and therefore 11.6 ounces/343.7 ml of the primer. 

Is this right?
- Paul

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 10:17:37 PM »
Arnaud,

You are way overcomplicating this. Mother Culture is generally used at 1% to 2% for most cheeses. A lot of it is style and personal preference, but there are situations where you really need to adjust up or down. Raw vs pastuerized is a good example.

IMHO, DCUs are meaningless for a Mother Culture. In a DVI you are dealing with a more or less known level of bacterial activity in a given volume. That is NOT the same as total bacterial count. With really old DVI cultures the activity will decline, but you have no way of knowing or adjusting for that. In a Mother Culture, the bacteria reach peak populations and then start declining as more acidity builds up. If half of the DVI bacteria used to start the MC are dead it doesn't matter. It will just take a little longer for the viable bacteria to set the culture. So properly made, a fresh Mother Culture is more consistent and active than DVI.

Here is a spreadsheet that shows calculations according to volume of milk.

linuxboy

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 10:32:59 PM »
Not getting what you're trying to do here. It's like Sailor said, you use 1-2%, and tailor your make times and heat/stir schedule to get to the right pH at the right time, and the right curd moisture level. Practically, there's not much difference in using 1% or 1.5% when using bulk culture. Your timing might be off by 10 mins, but you can easily compensate for this by stirring at a different rate, or settling curds to let them build up acidity. This is not like beer making at all in terms of pitch size. You have a narrow valid range.

2.27 is too high for a tomme. A tomme needs 1.5% max.


Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 12:15:37 AM »
What I'm trying to do is something like what takes place in a brewery - know something of the viable population count in the starter culture, so you know something of your pitching rate.  And if I know more precisely the optima for a given cheese - if such a thing exists - then I could do a more rigorous approach than could be gotten from dialing up and down from, say, a starting point of 1% bulk equivalent, or, admittedly worse, a recipe using "1/4 tsp DVI." 

Granted, without a hemacytometer, dye, and viability counts, etc., this isn't going to happen, hence my "precious" thing, so I grant I'm overcomplicating things.

That said, as I later indicated I was simply trying to create a spreadsheet that would convert a known recipe between units.  In the example case, the recipe given was 2.5 DCU for 500 lbs. milk.  This was on the basis of raw milk.  It indicated to double the starter amount, if using pasteurized milk.  Going by that recipe, what I ended up with via the spreadsheet pipeline was - what seemed to me as exceedingly high, I grant you - 2.25%, and 11.6 ounces primer for a 4 gallon batch. 

I'm thrown, too, by the amount.  But at this point, rather than going gaga by the excessive amount, I was hoping to find a way to easily convert between units - in this case, DCU, a figure I'm not accustomed to - and the useful prediction of bulk equivalent, and primer amounts.  In other words, not so much "is 2.25% correct for a pasteurized tomme batch?", but "is 2.25% and 11.7 oz. an accurate representation of a recipe calling for 5 DCU/500 lbs milk."

Hope that states it more clearly.  If it helps clear it up, attached is the simple spreadsheet I created, using the above recipe as a starting point (Sailor, it incorporates your tables, thanks). 

On the other hand, as I said, it isn't my intent to "add to complication or confusion"; if this is merely a dead road, yielding nothing useful to others, I'm perfectly willing to simply try a tomme, using the 1% basis and corresponding ounces of primer culture.   
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 12:32:28 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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linuxboy

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2011, 12:38:26 AM »
Oh, I see. Okay, in doing this, let's remember that what we're after are a certain number of viable bacteria, suitable for a bulk equivalency. The way that DCUs came about is that Danisco wanted a way to standardize culture activity to ensure even acidification. This they did by ensuring a certain CFUs/g. So that you could buy a pouch and dump it all in the vat and know that you're adding a certain number of live and active bacteria.

The recommendation they have, of 6.5 DCUs/100 liters is based on the equivalency of 1% bulk starter. The assumptions they make are that a bulk starter in skim milk will have something like 2 billion CFUs per gram. And the 6.5 DCUs correspond to that 1% bulk equivalency. In recipes, when recipes have specific DCUs per lb or liter or gallon, that's what they're after, too, they're trying to correspond to the old way of doing things, of using bulk equivalency. Makers make assumptions about viability because typically you will have at most 5-10% loss of viability for commercial settings, which is negligible.

So yes, you could be more precise, and do actual CFUs/g, and actually calculate viability. But practically, you can use something like my spreadsheet or Sailor's to determine pitch rate.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 12:53:45 AM »
Pav, thanks.  Don't know if anyone is getting this, but I'm having some trouble with the site - keeps getting hung up.  Will try your spreadsheet later.
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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 09:31:28 PM »
Thanks for the great discussion.  I have been following quietly in the background and it took me this long to digest the material... :P it really makes sense.  And now, time to give the brain a rest and get the hands dirty: I'm heading out to get my primer culture started and try my first Gouda and Lactic Mozzarella!   ;D ;D


Scarlet Runner

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Re: Consensus on propagating mother cultures from DVI packets?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2011, 11:26:30 PM »
So I made my first Mesophilic primer cultures a few weeks ago, starting with DVI powder containing L. lactis and L. cremoris, cultured in 1% milk per Sailor's photo essay method.  I've been trying to work out a few kinks that I encountered:

1. My 1 quart plastic milk jug (identical to what Sailor has pictured in his pot, different brand) exploded while sterilizing in the pot of hot water.  So I started over with some new milk in a Mason jar. Sailor if you read this, do your plastic jugs always hold up?  Mine burst about 20 minutes into the sterilization.

2. Where might I find the ideal incubation temp for various DVI blends?  I've looked around for product data sheets but haven't really found anything helpful. Ricki and John say to incubate Meso starts at 70-72F- but I thought the ideal temp for these bacteria was closer to 86F. Anyone got a source for incubation temps for various bacterial strains and/or mixes?

3. Finally, I had a tough time holding the incubation temp (I aimed for 75F) in a cooler of water overnight. I've figured out that my oven with the light on will maintain about 78F and hoping this will work for next time.  :)

Anyway- something worked, because I made a Gouda with the fresh primer that is looking tasty... Now I must get back to my first try with Lactic Cultured Mozz which I've been a SLAVE to ALL DAY waiting for it to SPIN.... sigh.