Brine question

[berrys66]

Is it advisable to make a whey-based brine using the whey left over after making Ricotta from it? Might this have too low a Calcium level, even if CaCl2 had been added in the original cheese make?

[iratherfly]

I always add CaCl2 to any brine. Better more than less. You just don't want it to run out of your cheese -which will happen if the amount in the brine isn't at least the amount in the cheese.

As for brining in it - I only use whey brine to brine the actual cheese that came out of that brine.  You can re-use it if you have similar cheese but not on a different cheese with different bacteria inoculation. Ricotta whey is a different than normal whey because it was likely boiled or came close to a boil.  That means that most of the bacterium and enzymes in it are dead and its protein has been modified and mostly extracted with the Ricotta curd.  Still for the purpose of flavor and bacteria growth it will be better than water but nothing like what an uncooked whey can do to cheeses.

[Sailor Con Queso]

By the time you put a wheel into brine, the bacteria have already established themselves. And the high salt concentration in brine puts a serious damper on bacterial growth. As you pointed out, whey from Ricotta has been heated to 190F or so and has no bacteria alive anyway. Any bacteria that are in a brine will be restricted to the surface of the cheese anyway and unable to penetrate the body. So it will not hurt to use a brine from a different bacterial mix. I do n ot use brine with Penicillium or other molds for other cheeses.

[berrys66]

Thanks for the advice. What I had in mind was to use the whey left over from making a swiss-style cheese, making Ricotta from it, and then using the whey left over after Ricotta extracted to make the brine for brining the Swiss. Whether it's advisable to try and make Ricotta with whey containing Shermanii is another question ...

[Sailor Con Queso]

P shermanii is one of the good guys, so go for it. Your yield will be low, so I would add some whole back in - also helps the flavor.

[berrys66]

I have another question regarding brine, although this also applies to any use of salt in cheese making: are there any problems with using salt that has the anti-caking agent Sodium Hexacyanoferrate added to it?

[Cheese Head]

There's a Wiki: Salt Type article that discusses it, also if you search the forum for the word caking you'll find several threads & posts.

Generally the feeling is that it is preferable not to have a desiccant in your salt, especially for direct salting curds or rinds but not as bad for brining.

[berrys66]

Thanks for the link John That must be about the only one I haven't read in the Wiki 

I don't know what the prices are in the USA, but over here "proper" salt (ie. just salt, no additives) is stupidly expensive because we're talking about stuf like "Maldon" salt which is about 20 times the price of table salt. Luckily we're going to Spain in a couple of months and decent rock salt is really cheap over there. We always bring a few kilos back with us whenever we go to Spain, but we haven't been for quite a while and have been reduced to using supermarket table salt.

[iratherfly]

I second John on that one.  I use Kosher salt and I only buy the Diamond Crystal brand because it has no anti-caking agents in its ingredient list. Only salt. (I am sure some other brands are like that too, but Morton which is a major brand HAS anti caking agents). You also don't want to use salt with iodine as it is effective in killing the bacterium you are attempting to grow.

As for your previous concern, I doubt P. Shermanii would survive Ricotta heat.  The thing I appreciate about whey brining is that apparently the whey proteins stick to the surface and help the surface bacteria grow the rind bloom.  If you made Ricotta, you have likely took those proteins and put them in the Ricotta curd already so that, in addition to killing the bacterium and enzymes just make for a weaker whey. Not going to hurt though.

[berrys66]

OK, seems like it's very much a case of it not actually hurting, and probably a better brine than just plain water and salt, but best to use the whey "as-is" and not make Ricotta first, correct?

[Sailor Con Queso]

No, it's fine to make Ricotta first. IRF was talking about bloomy rind cheeses.

[iratherfly]

Ah, to clarify:
What I meant is that whey that has not been used for Ricotta will help produce a richer and stronger bloomy/bacterial rinds.

Then, I commented that if the whey is for example from a Camembert, you don't want to use it on a Cheddar because you will get PC to bloom on the cheddar...

Then I added that if you made ricotta out of it, it won't matter anymore because the PC, or Shermanii or other bacteria and yeast would be dead because it is heated so much during the Ricotta making.  If this is the case, you can brine the cheese with no worry, but the bacterial rind bloom won't be as good as with fresh whey.

Lastly, I didn't call it "pre-ricotta whey brine" because obviously when you saturate 18% salt into your whey, it will no longer make a palatable Ricotta. In other words: Choose in advance between full fresh whey as a brine, giving up the ricotta, -or, making a ricotta and using its whey later to make brine that isn't as effective.

[steffb503]

You say this whey brine can be used again. How long can it be kept and for how many times can it be re-used?

[iratherfly]

With 18%-24% salt (heavy brine) it will last very long because the salt would deter foreign pathogens.

The rule of thumb is; whichever comes first - either unpleasant smell or too many floating cheese/curd particles on the surface from previous cheese brining = time to throw it away.

Keep in airtight container on the bottom shelf of fridge (41F or so). Brine at 60F to 75F

[Sailor Con Queso]

Filter, filter, filter. Put it in gallon milk jugs and store it in your fridge. I would do 3 or 4 cheeses and then replace. BUT you can also add a few drops of chlorine to kill any undesirables and use it much longer. This is completely benign and will add no flavor to the cheese. It is no different than the chlorine in city water. Commercially they can use brine this way indefinitely.