Author Topic: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?  (Read 590 times)

Offline IllinoisCheeseHead

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Illinois
  • Posts: 95
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2015, 04:34:24 PM »
I did not mean to cause a debate.  There are many ways of looking at these facts and I don't think no single study is conclusive.  My argument is to point to the fact that pasteurized milk has just about equally been responsible for negatively affecting humans. 

I realize that you are a doctor and I am in the medical field as well.  The debate will go on forever and I think people, so long as they practice common sense, should be fine.  Many feel strong about raw milk and I kind of say, if you don't want to use raw milk, then don't.  If you do, then use the best practices and tools at your disposal.  Not to argue with you because I respect your posts but I don't believe that the numbers are nothing more than extra attention that is placed on raw milk products.  I am not going to discuss this anymore because it is coming across as the worthniess of one research over another and that is not my intent at all. I also don't see value in mudding statements made such as "sites like that".  Are the number of incidents involving pasteurized incorrect or arethe references misleading?.  I did not see that at all and when I follow the references they seem to be completely accurate.  Just because the document is not written by a scientist, does not mean that it has less value.  The references are correct. 

I spent enough time researching and printing actual scientific studies a while back, when I started making cheese, and I found that for "me" the evidence was not there pointing me away from raw milk at all cost.  There are plenty of people in the world today that are healthy using raw milk.  I personally grew up on nothing but raw milk and my grand mother had 14 kids all of them being fed with raw milk.  I am not saying we should give up pasteurized milk as I buy it as well.  Just that I prefer to use raw milk for my cheese making endeavors.

This is my last response on this matter as I do not intend to argue the use of raw milk.  We should agree to disagree :)

Thanks
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 07:47:01 PM by IllinoisCheeseHead »

Online qdog1955

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: York, Pa. USA
  • Posts: 482
  • Cheeses: 43
  • Just because we can----doesn't mean we should
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 05:34:36 AM »
  I'm not sure why a discussion on any subject, has to turn into a nasty argument. Personally, I want to here all sides of any position, so I can form  my own opinion.
   I know for a fact that the Dr. isn't against using raw milk, especially in cheese, when his family visited, they gifted me with a couple gallons of raw milk. As a pediatrician, he has well founded concerns on giving raw milk to young children.
 I also think that anyone who has used the internet to find fact based and or empirical evidence on any subject, is usually disappointed in the results----as the results are usually opinion based. Sometimes, several good studies are found that  have completely different results.
  Having a rational discussion on the pros and cons of raw milk on the Forum should be a positive helpful experience.
Qdog     
Worrying----is like sitting in a rocking chair---- a lot of motion-----but it gets you no where.

Offline IllinoisCheeseHead

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Illinois
  • Posts: 95
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 09:39:22 AM »
This is why email and posts are usually a bad place to debate anything.  Reason being because you can't read the writers emotional intent.  I do not feel strong about using or not using raw milk but felt that the comments where derogatory towards users of raw milk.  I am sorry for defending the use of raw milk but I was not previewed to the fact that he also gifts raw milk.

See, we were all talking about the same thing and arguing at the same time, which I did not want to do because talking about raw milk in this forum is like talking about religion :)

The thread started with questions about a book which I ordered and then canceled because I did not feel that the book spoke to me and did not agree with the message in it.  That's all.

Let's enjoy cheese making as each one, with the ingredients you like, become a work of art and unique all by itself.

Thanks

Online amiriliano

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Philadlephia area, USA
  • Posts: 207
  • Cheeses: 27
  • Queso Nerd
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 10:32:04 AM »
@QDog: debates get out of hand for a number of reasons, the major one of which is ego.

Part of what I do is discussing public understanding of scientific concepts and that often means discussing (while trying to avoid arguments) scientific issues. Where people have trouble usually is in understanding concept such as 'consensus' and 'available evidence'. Raw milk safety is a scientific issue which has been studied for over a hundred years. It's one of those things where the scientific evidence and consensus heavily weigh towards the side of pasteurization, or raw milk product aging (the FDA designated 2 month minimum, which does in fact decrease food-borne illness but the 60 day period is debatable). These are practices that are used worldwide and have saved countless lives over the decades. It's true there are always some studies which point in the other direction (that's the nature of science, usually referred to as 'noise'). What people tend to do is Google and then pick the studies that fit their world view (something known as 'confirmation bias' - a well studied phenomenon). They disregard the rest, even if the vast majority of data disagrees with them.

So when topics like this come up, I've learned to just ask people to "show me the data." Almost always people back out at that point. It's a shame because the goal is not to "defeat" them, but to have an intellectual discussion. However often I find the other side is obsessed with winning a debate.

While it's true that every issue has multiple sides, in science, that's less true. Sometimes we do actually have a pretty good hold on an answer. Granted, that answer may change or evolve over time, but at that moment, there is a "as best as we know" answer.


I'm going to respectfully disagree with Illinois.

As for me, I do use raw milk with caveats: any fresh cheese I use pasteurized milk or self pasteurize at home per guidelines. If it's raw milk, I only use it for cheeses aged 60 days or longer (usually much longer).

I agree with Illinois that on the hobbyist level one can use good handling techniques etc. Where you get into trouble is in the mass market and public health concerns.

-E

Offline IllinoisCheeseHead

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Illinois
  • Posts: 95
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 12:33:56 PM »
See we don't disagree that much.

You say "any fresh cheese I use pasteurized milk or self pasteurize at home per guidelines. If it's raw milk, I only use it for cheeses aged 60 days or longer (usually much longer)".  That is exactly what I do and I have said it several times.  I make cream cheese every week with left over milk and it is always pasteurized.  If I drink raw milk, I pasteurize it.  Now, those are my views alone and I know many people drink Raw Milk without ever getting sick (I grew up that way) and I respect their choices.  If I was not a parent and a worry wart, I would not pasteurize raw milk at all and always use it that way.  Until my son was born, this is what my partner and I did for 10 years and never got sick.  My son was premature and very sick at birth because of the care he was getting at the orphanage so I never gace him raw milk. 

It is all a preference really and studies support it both ways if you look far enough.

Thanks

Online amiriliano

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Philadlephia area, USA
  • Posts: 207
  • Cheeses: 27
  • Queso Nerd
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 01:54:24 PM »
Yeah - we definitely agree on most things. My response was more to QDog's questions regarding my use of raw milk.

Where we part ways is:

"It is all a preference really and studies support it both ways if you look far enough."

Not only have I looked far enough as part of my professional responsibilities, but so has every major public health institution on the planet. It's a false equivalency to say there's as much data supporting one side vs the other. You don't have to of course and we can just agree to disagree, but I would normally ask you to prove your claims by posting evidence that your assertions are correct. Again, in the interest of moving on and since this is primarily a hobby-level forum, we can skip the science exchange if you like. I'm willing to discuss it as well.

Take care,

E

Offline John@PC

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Hartsville, SC
  • Posts: 829
  • Cheeses: 75
  • Default personal text
    • Perfect Cheese
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 04:20:46 PM »
"The Art of Natural Cheesemaking is the first cheesemaking book to take a political stance against Big Dairy and to criticize both standard industrial and artisanal cheesemaking practices (emphasis mine). It promotes the use of ethical animal rennet and protests the use of laboratory-grown freeze-dried cultures(emphasis mine, again ???". It also explores how GMO technology is creeping into our cheese and the steps we can take to stop it."
Ummmm.  I started to post this but scrolled down and saw the "discussion".  I'll reserve any comments until I have a chance to read them all.  My primary concern is the statement about taking a "political stance".  Health concerns, pathogens, best practices, etc. are worth discussing but the third rail of POLITICS (or is it Social Security, I forget  ???) shouldn't even be mentioned in the context of artisanal cheese making.  I'll leave it there and enjoy the discussion :).

OK.  Skimmed back over the thread and my 1 1/2 cents:  This forum is one with a diverse membership who can have a interesting and rousing discussion and still be friends in the end.  Cheese making trumps over politics every time ;).
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:34:42 PM by John@PC »

Offline IllinoisCheeseHead

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Illinois
  • Posts: 95
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 04:58:06 PM »
Ditto.  And each cheese is a creation of work of art.

Online qdog1955

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: York, Pa. USA
  • Posts: 482
  • Cheeses: 43
  • Just because we can----doesn't mean we should
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 04:58:51 PM »
Emi----my apologies ----I know that your position on raw milk is for use in aged cheese and I should have made that clear---so give me 30 lashes with a string cheese :)  The only thing I am certain of----is raw milk gives me better curds, better cheese flavor with better texture, and I do age a minimum of 60 days. That's an opinion based solely on my experiences so far----the only science that comes into play here, would be watching Mr. Spock or maybe Macyver while making my cheese. >:D
Qdog
Worrying----is like sitting in a rocking chair---- a lot of motion-----but it gets you no where.

Online smolt1

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: oregon
  • Posts: 200
  • Cheeses: 20
  • Default personal text
    • SturdyPress.com
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 05:10:25 PM »
After following this thread with great interest, I have come to the conclusion that the cure for our deeply polarized country is for everyone to start making cheese.

Offline OzzieCheese

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 973
  • Cheeses: 99
  • Sun-Grass-Cow-Milk-Cheese-Happiness
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 11:45:10 PM »
I love a spirited discussion - It is where ideas are born, opinions aired and ultimately some sort of consensus reached.  I too enjoy the fruits of our hobby with the full understanding that the main ingredient is an extremely perishable food and like all types of food that spoil easily - need the due care, respect and attention it is due.  And the point of right or wrong is moot when people are not allowed to make a choice.  That which is encouraging here, is that which is sometimes need to motivate change, - passion.  Be passionate and make more cheese. :) 

-- Mal   
Usually if one person asks a question then 10 are waiting for the answer - Please ask !

Offline TimT

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 125
  • Cheeses: 5
  • What tastes better - cheese holes, or Donut holes?
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #41 on: Today at 12:40:31 AM »
Without following all of this thread I have to say the book sounds interesting and hopefully it combines a lot of simple practical advice with the politics.

We have similar politics here in Australia, with the debate about whether raw milk should be legalised or not. I like to think I'm in the middle ground on this; I have to say I'm sympathetic with the 'legalise it' movement, though I think their arguments can get very silly. They tend to argue that raw milk is much better for you, whereas I wish they'd just focus on the fact that raw milk is simply a higher quality product for cooking. But then, I'm not in it for the health, I'm in it for the deliciousness. As for the government position, well, I'm happy to acknowledge they have a point about the importance of public health and that risks like listeria are real - I just think they greatly exaggerate these risks and ignore the rise in artisan cheesemaking at their peril.

There are lots of other, I dunno, I suppose you'd call them 'political' matters in cheesemaking: animal or vegetarian or GMO rennet? Which cultures to use, store culture, heirloom culture, wild culture? And so on. Everyone has their favoured way of doing things and their favoured method. Looks like the book will touch on a lot of this too. I'll look out for it :)

Offline Gobae

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Valley Falls, NY
  • Posts: 51
  • Cheeses: 2
  • Default personal text
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #42 on: Today at 08:53:58 AM »
Personally, I'm looking forward to the book because I have an interest in pre-industrial tech. Cheese has been made for thousands of years before DVI cultures and perhaps, eventually, I'd also like not to be tied to purchasing them over and over. There is something quite liberating (for me) about having the skills needed to "recreate civilization from dirt". :)

Online amiriliano

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Philadlephia area, USA
  • Posts: 207
  • Cheeses: 27
  • Queso Nerd
Re: Anybody Buying this New Cheesemaking Book?
« Reply #43 on: Today at 09:33:23 AM »
Excellent points made by all here. And honestly, none of us really know yet: this book might be great.

As someone who is obsessed with and loves the beauty of cheesemaking AND works in public health (specifically pertaining to children) I can appreciate both sides. I would say it's important for people to learn about their food's origins and all that is connected with its production. On the other side of the balance though, we have to be careful not to over-romanticize the past. Public health has come a very, very long way in the last 150 years and while modernization can feel "sterile" at times, it does have its place. Things were pretty lousy "back then" in terms of public health...

The beauty of the craft and the pleasure and pride one gets from producing ancient food from scratch are amazing things. But we should also avoid floating away from reasonable safety practices...

Just my 2 cents..

-E
« Last Edit: Today at 09:42:38 AM by amiriliano »