Author Topic: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen  (Read 4001 times)

Offline steffb503

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Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« on: March 22, 2011, 05:37:55 PM »
I am having a terrible time with my hard cheese. I have been making soft cheese with my fresh goat milk for years and love it. I make a Cherve, Feta, yogurt, and Camembert all with great success.

I have a raw milk license so my milk is tested monthly. It taste great for 2-3 weeks so I know it is not the milk.
I have been trying all different types of hard cheese to find the one I like best. I love all of them when they are young but as they age the taste is too strong, tangy but not in a good way. It is not that i do not like strong cheese, I do. But these taste not so good alot.

Perhaps I am using the wrong cultures for got milk? perhaps I need to adjust temps and times?
I have been making a 4-8 gallon wheel every other day simply because I have the milk and would rather keep trying than feed it to the pigs.
I guess I figure if I finally get it right I will have more.

If any of you who make aged goat cheese would like to share your thoughts it would be much appreciated.

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 06:20:59 PM »
1) What breed(s)
2) What are your milk numbers
3) What is your feed/supplement/mineral schedule
4) What is your milking procedure, equipment, and storage
5) How old is the milk when you make the cheese?
6) What cheeses have you tried and with what cultures?
7) Have you made my tomme, both regular and washed curd?

and also, what is your affinage schedule?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:52:09 AM by linuxboy »

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 10:41:55 AM »
 Mostly Nubian and Alpine with a little Boer in all of them.
Not sure what you mean by numbers, Butterfat was 3.75 at last test. That was a few years ago.
They eat Blue Seal Dairy Goat Pellet, They have free choice minerals high in copper, and free choice hay. They also are out on pasture mostly grass all day.
I sanitize all equipment and let air dry. I wash udders ,dry and teat dip. I wash my hands and hand milk. I strain and cool. I do not cool if going right into the cheese vat.
I use milk that I just milked at most 1 hour old.
I have made, cheddar, Colby, MonterayJack, Havarti, all with similar results. I have an Edam that I have not yet opened. I am using Meso MM 100 or Ma11. I was using generic Meso from Hoeggers.
I have yet to make Tomme. It seems like an awful lot of time to invest into something that will taste bad. But i will try if you think it is a good one to make.

I follow what ever recipe I am using. Pressing, draining,I air dry in the kitchen, now in my cheese room. I have been vac sealing and I keep in wine cooler.

My biggest puzzle is the same piece of cheese when opened at 60 days or younger is great then I put it in a ziploc and back into the fridge. Two days later that same piece tastes bad.

I will figure this out. I see others selling raw aged goat cheese and they describe it as mild and pleasant which leads me to believe it has no goaty taste. If they can do it I can do it.
With your help.

Steff

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 01:49:33 PM »
My guess is that you are not aging long enough. The federal guidelines are a minimum of 60 days for raw milk, but most take 90 or more. A cheese that is tart and acidic now might be wonderful 30 or 60 days later.

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 03:02:32 PM »
I have a few still aging. I have promised myself to wait but In the past i have waited only till 60 days. i will wait 30 more on top of the 60.

zenith1

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 03:35:42 PM »
Steff-try dividing up the wheel on the next one that you cut and wrap and continue to age the rest. Keep track of the total ageing time for each section that you have saved. Then you can try it at say 90 and 120 days and have some more data points to work from. I would tend to agree with Sailor- it might just be an aging issue if you are good with all other aspects of your make.

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 03:56:37 PM »
Mostly Nubian and Alpine with a little Boer in all of them.

Are genetics mixed, meaning multiple lines, or do you have shared genetics? I'm trying to eliminate this as a cause. Some lines just have absolutely terrible milk for cheesemaking. It's somewhat rare, but if all your does share similar parentage, it could be a contributor.
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Not sure what you mean by numbers, Butterfat was 3.75 at last test. That was a few years ago.
When you get your milk tested, what is the SCC, BF, protein, lactose, etc. PM if you prefer. Now, what I'm trying to do is eliminate milk abnormalities as a possible cause. It could be that you have sub-clinical mastitis, or your feed program is making for unusual milk, like milk with too much nitrogen in it from feeding excess protein. Your pellet is a 20% protein. Easy to overfeed. I feed mine a whole grain mix that I balance to 14% protein, and use alfalfa + browse for calcium and roughage.
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They eat Blue Seal Dairy Goat Pellet,
OK, how much per head? Or are you free feeding? here, in the nutrition discussion, I am trying to determine if the caloric, element, protein, fat, fiber, calcium, phosphorus, etc needs are being met, or if they are out of balance. Please, give me some specifics if possible.
Quote
They have free choice minerals high in copper, and free choice hay.
Which brand minerals? What kind of hay? What are the hay numbers if you had the hay tested?
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They also are out on pasture mostly grass all day.
What kind of grass?
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I sanitize all equipment and let air dry.
What sanitizer?
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I wash udders ,dry and teat dip. I wash my hands and hand milk. I strain and cool.
How fast do you cool? To grade A standards?

Quote
I have made, cheddar, Colby, MonterayJack, Havarti, all with similar results.
Those are all basically the same cheese. They're in the same family type.
Quote
I have an Edam that I have not yet opened. I am using Meso MM 100 or Ma11. I was using generic Meso from Hoeggers.
I have yet to make Tomme. It seems like an awful lot of time to invest into something that will taste bad.
I don't follow. My tomme is one of the fastest makes out there. You go from vat to press in under 3 hours. And from morning milk to brine by the end of the day. I designed it as a backbone cheese that sells well for artisan creameries. If you need help, post in the thread, PM me, call me, etc. Tomme should be the first foundational cheese anyone makes when going from soft cheeses to hard. It's hard to mess up a tomme. Even when you think everything has gone wrong, it still winds up good. And you learn a great deal about cheesemaking with this style.
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But i will try if you think it is a good one to make.
I do. I can send you a culture packet of 4001 if you need it.
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I follow what ever recipe I am using.
Which recipes do you use?
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Pressing, draining,I air dry in the kitchen, now in my cheese room. I have been vac sealing and I keep in wine cooler.
How long from drying to vac sealing? And what temp in cooler? Do you have any whey seepage in the bag?
Quote
My biggest puzzle is the same piece of cheese when opened at 60 days or younger is great then I put it in a ziploc and back into the fridge. Two days later that same piece tastes bad.
Goaty taste is due to fat lipolysis. Lipases from the culture and natural lipases in the milk break down fat. In your case, it could be that the exposure to oxygen is causing mold/yeast/bacteria to grow in the surface, causing excess fat breakdown. Another possibility is that the bag has 100% humidity, which causes rapid aging on the surface, leading to a strong goaty tang. And another possibility is your milk handling. If goat milk is agitated, it breaks up fat molecules, releasing lipases.

The other possibility is your affinage. When lipases break down fat, they at first release the immediate FFAs, which for goat milk is the shorter chain, C8-C12. Those are your really goaty tasting FFAs. With time, those FFAs break down into flavor forming compounds and will be less goaty. It may be that you are aging at the wrong temp, and eating too young. Do you sample the cheese with a trier as it ages so you can train yourself on the transformations, and tell what the cheese does as it goes through the various phases of aging? If not, it's very good practice. You vac seal, so instead of that, what you can do is cut a wheel, and age slices to different ages, and taste them every 2-4 weeks to see the changes.

Anyway, I can help more if you give some more details.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:18:35 PM by linuxboy »

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 10:24:00 AM »
Well let me answer your questions. And thank you.

No my goats have different lineage. While some share parents others are totally unrelated.

My last test results from the state are,SCC- 105,000, I do not get results for protien, lactose etc. But all results are normal. No Mastitis or I would not be able to sell Raw.

My goats do not like alfalfa pellets. The hay I feed is running 18% protein and 10% moisture. The guy I get it from tests every cutting, every field. I can get the print outs but it is always good. I have a few print outs in front of me, lots of numbers not sure which you want. Can give you all if you wish.
Calcium:Phosphorus are better than 2:1
They get apprx 3lbs of grain a day.
Minerals are Sweetlix Meatmaker. Free choice
Just grass, no cedar, no oniongrass, no ferns.

I sanitize with Clorox bleach @ 200ppm

Yes I cool to 40F within 2 hrs if selling milk. I do not cool if I am going to make cheese right away. I then use it within an hour.

I guess the age time for Tomme put me off. I would not know if it was good or not for a while and if it was good then I would have to wait another long time for more . Or make a couple of them only to find out it was not good.
But It will be my next cheese, especially if you care to share your recipe.

I had been using Ricki Carroll recipes. I have switched to Margret Morris.

I have been waiting a bit longer to vac seal, until the rind was a bit drier than I would if waxing.
The temp in cooler is around 50F but depends on what the recipe calls for.
I have had very little seepage. When I do I open air dry for a few more days and re seal.

I would think if I agitated too much the soft Chevre would taste goaty also. I pasteurize that for sale and must agitate while heating. It tastes great. The milk for raw cheese does not get agitated except to stir curds. I am gentle.

I have a Colby that has a bit of whey in the bag. Should I vac seal them separately? dry them first then reseal?

Once again thanks for all your help
I will keep you posted.

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 03:15:15 PM »
Hmm, your feed and mineral schedules seem OK at a first glance. Protein seems a little high, but not necessarily if they're eating enough grass. Are you giving them supplemental copper at all? Either sulfate in solution in the water, or copper oxide rods? My milk has been more consistent with supplemental copper.

Tomme styles do not need to age long. It's ready to eat in 45 days with mild flavor, and has decent flavor in 60 days. Not sure how long you thought it needs. It's a cheese that usually doesn't age out well; it won't last you 12 months, for example, unless you target a lower moisture content. But it's great for sales because it has higher moisture than a cheese like cheddar, so you're selling more water (but still not as much water as chevre). I posted my recipe a while ago http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,1591.0.html. Read the clarifications on my site, too (http://www.wacheese.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49:basic-tomme-howto&catid=43:moderate-cook-temp&Itemid=66)

IMHO, you should not make American style cheeses with goat milk. It's possible to make them, and they might even taste good, but goat's milk is not cow's milk. It's better suited to more classic tomme and tomme/toma variants, like Garrotxa. And it's also better suited to lactic and semi-lactic styles, like the many French cheeses out there. If you are making American type cheese, like cheddar, you usually have to wash the curds a little to get rid of some goatiness. And you have to age a little lower temp (45-50F) to slow them down. A lot of people make tommes and tomme variants, and then give them finishes, like natural molds, or rub them with spices.

Your milk handling sounds right... gentle on the milk and curds.

Any time you have whey in the bag, you must take the wheel out and dry it. That water will cause off flavors.

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2011, 10:51:47 AM »
Well these have been the hardest 2 months ever!!
I left the cheese alone.
I have opened an Edam and it was dlisious!!!
It was great at day one, 5, and 10.
So I guess the problem was the aging time. Today I will open a swiss and next I have a Havarti. If they taste as good as the Edam I am in the raw aged goat cheese business.
Good thing because I signed up for our local Farmers Market starting in June.

Thanks for all your help guys!!
Wish you could stop by for some cheese.

judyp

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 05:11:19 AM »
Was the conclusion to age it longer?  I am also making raw goat's milk cheese and have experienced the same sort of goaty flavor.  It's not bad, but not like cow's milk cheese.  I have a friend who has expressed the same with hers.  I have made Colby, Farm house cheddar, Manchago, Swiss and tonight standard cheddar.  I've  aged them 6 months before opening one up. 

The last one I opened because my cooler got turned off and I didn't catch it for 2 days.  We opened the swiss.  My hubby says it's the best cheese he's ever tasted.  It has a stronger flavor.  The Manchego had a really good flavor and tiny hint of goat or something different.  Not sure what.  It had aged 5 months.

I've never made the Tomme.  I'll have to try it.

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 09:40:16 AM »
I do believe it was the aging.
In my head the reason for aging 60+ days was for legal purposes and the cheese should taste good after 30. But that was only in my head.

judyp

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 05:48:41 PM »
Did you age it 60 days or longer?  Have you let any of your cheese age longer than the 60 days? How did it taste?

Offline steffb503

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 09:58:14 AM »
It has been hard enough to wait the full 60 days but when I open them I have been cutting in half and resealing them for an additional 30 days if I can.
Th other problem is my customers really want to buy some. So I hate to keep putting them off.

Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 03:17:07 PM »
Steff - don't be tempted to sell your cheeses too early. Your reputation is on the line. ;)