Author Topic: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen  (Read 4002 times)

Offline steffb503

  • Catskill Mts, NY State, USA
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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2011, 05:46:23 PM »
Had some friends over Sunday and I opened a few that I made prior to getting my actual license so I can not sell those .  We tried a Havarti, Monteray Jack, Edam and Swiss The Swiss  had some wicked cracks in it so I knew it would not age proper. It also was too large for my vac bags so I had to make my own bag. Needless to say it did not work well so I opened it a bit early. I actually opened it 2 weeks ago making it three weeks early and I put it in two vac bags and aged the additional 2 weeks.
It was fantastic. Tasted just like Swiss with a nice nutty aftertaste. I tasted it of course 2 weeks ago and again the other day. All good, better than good. Still good.
All the cheeses were delicious.
I am very pleased.

GotGoats

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2011, 01:21:15 PM »
I haven't been around since last fall, when we dried up the herd and I no longer had milk. I learned a bit from this thread, but I still have a few questions of my own. :)

Right now I have a lot of milk on my hands, I need to make 5-6 gallons of cheese every few days, cheddar or Monteray Jack or Colby or I have been tempted to try Provalone or Swiss ... We were feeding baby goats & calves, the abundance of milk is a recent thing, I'm only 3 wheels into my sprint to stock my cheese cave. I have made two small wheels of cheddar last fall (very sharp, husband likes them though) and I've put 20-25# of traditional moz in the freezer this spring. Days I make cheese I've got something of a routine down!

Questions:

When I cut curds, and let them sit the time the recipe specifies, they almost always knit back together. Is this a goat milk thing? would you cut them again? Stir them instead of letting them set? I am at a loss. I like to experiment with recipes, but not knowing if it worked for 2mo is rather challenging.

Could I possibly dry wheels in my Excalibur on say, 95* to develop the rind faster? Is there a downside to that? The last wheel of Mon. Jack sat almost a week and was molding before it dried uniformly like I wanted it to.  >:( I suspect I have mold/yeast floating around in my kitchen from breadmaking/fermenting. I was thinking the dehydrator in another room might help that?

Is it a huge deal to have some creases/folds/dimples in the rind? The Mon. Jack is doing this. I tried pressing with more weight (just a few pounds, it only calls for 10#), which helped a tad. I suspect this is because the curds are knitting back together, but am really at a loss, again. Should I dunk in 100* water and try to smooth stuff out? I just took this last wheel out of the press early this morning, it has dimpling in the rind, too. The recipes I'm using are Ricki Carol's, which all call for 2 gallons but I need to at least double the recipes for practical purposes.

I'm wondering, if the 2gallon recipe calls for 10# pressure, should I use 20# pressure on a 4-ish pound cheese???

I vac packed the last two cheeses, tiny bits of whey have developed (I have to look really close). Again, seems like I could dry them out with the air movement of the dehydrator, otherwise they would probably mold first?!? I honestly think I would prefer to wax them, only so I don't know what is going on underneath ... not wise, I know! LOL

I'm going to try knocking the cheese cave down a few more degrees. It stays consistently at 50-53* and 80-83% humidity in my basement.

Maybe part of my problem is making American Cheeses with goat's milk ... but it's the only cheeses I have any familiarity with at all.  :-[ Well, I've had a few slices of Swiss in my life ... which I would like to try making but I'm nervous to add another mold to my house!  ;D I would probably have to buy Havarti or Edam  from the store to even see what I was aiming for!!!  ::)

Any and all thoughts appreciated. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but waiting 60+ days to see if my "experiments" work or not is really challenging. I have about a month of making cheese every 2-3 days and then we'll dry up most of the goats, so I can't really tell which wheels work yet or not. *sigh*

I do love the whole process! I just wish I had more of the bugs worked out!  8)

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »
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When I cut curds, and let them sit the time the recipe specifies, they almost always knit back together. Is this a goat milk thing?
No, it's a good milk thing.
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would you cut them again? Stir them instead of letting them set?
You mean the initial cut, and during healing the curds knit? Because I've never seen that happen. Or do you mean when you start stirring, if you fail to stir gently, the curds mat? If the latter, you need to keep stirring until the moisture is right, and then mat the curds.
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Could I possibly dry wheels in my Excalibur on say, 95* to develop the rind faster?
Yes, if you can figure out a way to pass through 100% hydrated air. Meaning practically, no. But what you can do is put a regular fan on it. but watch it carefully, it dries up FAST.
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I was thinking the dehydrator in another room might help that?
Wipe with towel, put a fan on it. Also, there's a limit to that rind formation. If you want it even faster, use a fully saturated brine, it will have a firmer outer edge then after you remove from the brine.
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Is it a huge deal to have some creases/folds/dimples in the rind?

No, but indentations/cracks are a problem because if the cheese is contaminated, it will cause off-flavors inside. ut it's you have an even surface, then that's fine.
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Should I dunk in 100* water and try to smooth stuff out?
Actually, if you do have cracks to the inside and want to smooth them out, that's one valid approach. If it's just surface imperfections and indentations, not an issue.

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I'm wondering, if the 2gallon recipe calls for 10# pressure, should I use 20# pressure on a 4-ish pound cheese???
Those pressures and weights in her book are completely arbitrary, scaled for use with a spring press or a home press with weights. Look up our PSI discussions for more details.
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I vac packed the last two cheeses, tiny bits of whey have developed (I have to look really close).
Don't vac pac for a few weeks, or until the cheese is completely dry and stable. Whey seepage in vac packing ruins cheese.
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I honestly think I would prefer to wax them, only so I don't know what is going on underneath
No huge functional differences in the materials choice. Will still have whey seepage issues.
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Maybe part of my problem is making American Cheeses with goat's milk ... but it's the only cheeses I have any familiarity with at all.
Make my tomme. You must understand the principles of tomme styles if you want to make any hard cheese. Then make a washed curd tomme. Then you're ready for just about any cheese.

GotGoats

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2011, 03:19:12 PM »
I've got these recipes that say: "Cut curd into _ size, then let rest _ minutes. Then heat to _ while stirring gently to prevent matting."

Problem is, letting them rest much at all results in them knitting back together, sometimes in REALLY big clumps! Each little curd is distinct, but trying to break them back apart is a doozy. So by the time I'm to the "stirring to prevent matting" they are already matted, which feels so wrong to me!  ::)

A fan! Never would have thought of it! THANK YOU! :D

Good to know that her weights are very arbitrary.  :-\ I am married to an engineer, honestly I think some of cheese making's complexities would be more up his alley ... but at least I have someone more than willing to lug weights and run all the calculations to figure out PSI. ;)

Tomme. Yes, sir. No idea what that is (don't laugh) but I will look for your recipe and make that next - maybe tomorrow. Your insights are very much appreciated!!!! :)

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2011, 03:28:10 PM »
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sometimes in REALLY big clumps!
Oh I see. That resting period is called healing. It's when you form a skin on the curd to make it more durable so that when you stir, it doesn't fall apart. If you treat your curd gently, you can start stirring right away. In big vats, there's often no healing time. Also, just because you cut the curd, it doesn't mean you're done. As you stir, you will see there are some larger pieces. You need to break those up and cut them so all the curds are uniform.

It sounds like your milk is really good and your curds are strong. If so, handle the curd gently and you shouldn't need to heal more than 1-2 minutes.
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weights are very arbitrary. 
The book was written for ease of use for people at home. If you start going on all about PSI and surface area, it would lose people who just want to make cheese and not have to be engineers to do so. The truth is, as I've written here before, that it's the entire method of pressing and approach that determines weight. I can press without any weight, using just my hands, and have zero openings in many cheeses just by keeping the cheese warm. Meaning, there's no one right answer. If you're happy with 10 lbs and can accept the openings inside the cheese, use that. If not, use more weight.

GotGoats

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 04:01:52 PM »
Yes, I usually stir and find those other pieces, though I feel like I'm supposed to be "letting it rest". ::) I'm probably going to have to waft it around while it is supposed to be healing to avoid matting, then. I do have a pretty big, 7gal vat. I put it in a 13gal vat and use hot water to raise temps. I can usually raise the temps pretty quickly if I cycle the water in and out, but I can only lift 5gal by myself. I think husband might rig me a pulley in the ceiling though so I can do 6gal ... LOL

PSI doesn't frazzle me at all, married to a math genius that will crunch any numbers I throw at him for fun. It is the pH kit/meters that sound so complicated!

I found your tomme recipe. Sounds like I have to get over my dread of measuring pH.  Not thrilled about that ... but gotta do it sometime! It would probably help overall and give me more consistent batches of cheese.

I don't mind tweaking recipes, but I usually master a basic recipe before I start tweaking. It seems like cheese making has so many variables, you have to make the recipe fit your conditions right away, and I guess that is part of the beauty of it, but still intimidating at the beginning of the learning process!

Thank you for your help. There seem to be a lot of threads on tomme that I'll be reading the next few days. :D

linuxboy

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 05:30:42 PM »
Yes, I usually stir and find those other pieces, though I feel like I'm supposed to be "letting it rest".
No, if curd is solid, stir gently and you're fine. Healing will happen naturally.
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I'm probably going to have to waft it around while it is supposed to be healing to avoid matting, then.
That's still healing, but healing with stirring, as opposed to only stirring.
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I found your tomme recipe. Sounds like I have to get over my dread of measuring pH.  Not thrilled about that ... but gotta do it sometime! It would probably help overall and give me more consistent batches of cheese.
Not at all :). Those markers are only for people who like to use pH and have meters. If you don't have a meter, follow the time guidelines. Tommes are ridiculously flexible and still come out tasting good. A tomme is the most basic of cheese types and is the ancestor of the majority of hard cheese types.

You'll do great! Just keep trying :)

GotGoats

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Re: Hard Cheeses, Goat, Raw - Flavor Too Strong Tangy As Ripen
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2011, 10:11:19 PM »
Whoa. Just had to check in ...I didn't get a chance to make tomme yesterday as we had company and another project got in the way.

But I just finished up with 6 gallons; my 4-10# mold is FULL, it's just starting to press/mat together. I tried checking my rennet at 30minutes instead of 45, made a *world* of diff in how the curd cut. :D

So far, so good, I think, at least it's looking really decent. Brining is a new one for me, but can't wait to try. And washed curd. Frankly tomme seems to be less complex than the American cheeses I've been trying, though it seems to have a far different feel but I suspect that's because it's semi-soft? This is the kind of curd yield that I would *suspect* my goats are capable of, but haven't been able to achieve yet.

I might be hooked on tomme. Of course, it would be nice to taste it before the final say, of course. ;)

Thank you for the recommendation and the easily followed recipe!!! :)