Manufactured Cultures - Which Ones To Stock For Average Cheese Maker?

[linuxboy]

It's a completely different mindset. The plant mindset is that enough can be abstracted that you can do something completely different in the process, yet still learn from it. For example, in making mini cheeses, the emphasis is flavor and rheology. So the rheology can be tested by mechanical means with a machine. And flavor can be measured by using a mass spectrometer.

It's a very basic way to do things. If you wanted to imitate comte, you'd have to design a process to work for smaller cheeses, and then figure out a way to replicate the wash on a very small scale. maybe by extracting enzymes from b linens and putting the enzymes directly in the cheese, and comparing the results at 1-2 months with the real thing, and then seeing the differences, and creating a model that accounts for differences and bias. It's a whole other game. Tends to work for figuring out flavor of bulk cheeses though, like cheddar. 

You use the results from a chemical point of view. If the sensory profile for a specific group fit, then you move into larger-scale production, and then into sensory panels, etc. Standard geeky R&D type stuff.

With sensory learning, it wouldn't be possible to do small cheeses. Maybe small-er. Not full size comte, but say, a 3-lb wheel.

[ArnaudForestier]

Gotcha, thanks, Pav.  Prior to reading Fox, I had zero knowledge that there was even such a thing as rheology testing, with force and sheer equipment; zero knowledge that it got down to this level in the industry.  It's all very interesting.  At Goose (the brewery where I worked), sensory panels were a daily part of our lives, not for R&D so much, as for QC, and very little ever went wrong - pretty tight process controls, even with something as variable as yeast, barley protein and starch content, and hop a-acid contents. 

I was just hoping to find a way to address the problem, from a very personal standpoint, of loving long-aged, alpine-style cheeses, and wanting to perfect them in this one life.  (Yes, I'm approaching 50...so going apocalyptic, it seems).  Assuming a billion makes of 4 pound versions, I'm still trying to wrangle with the nagging notion that the 4 pound parameters would be so far removed from the real thing, that it would be difficult to abstract the process variables to the larger scale, yes? 

It seems many of the makers I've looked at - Uplands, Thistle Hill, for example - simply went to the Savoie (or worked with consultants to devise recipes and methods), learned "a way" from the learned, experienced makers, and emulated the process back home; I'd imagine very little manipulation of the learned orthodoxy, except to deal with problems as they come up in any cave. 

[linuxboy]

I'm still trying to wrangle with the nagging notion that the 4 pound parameters would be so far removed from the real thing, that it would be difficult to abstract the process variables to the larger scale, yes? 

No, if you preserve the height to diameter to volume ratios, it's almost exactly the same. Ripens a little faster and tends to lose water a little faster, but that's it. Also salt uptake dynamic is just a little different, but not too much.

It seems many of the makers I've looked at - Uplands, Thistle Hill, for example - simply went to the Savoie (or worked with consultants to devise recipes and methods), learned "a way" from the learned, experienced makers, and emulated the process back home;

Yes, exactly. They make great cheese because of raw milk quality and attention to detail, not because they are some unattainable gods of cheesemaking. Seriously, it's not that hard.

I'd imagine very little manipulation of the learned orthodoxy, except to deal with problems as they come up in any cave. 

mm, kind of. Uplands had to adjust for a different wheel size, different milk, etc. But you're absolutely right, the core make of the alpine style is the same. You start with great alpage milk, make it when it's really fresh, select proper cultures so that the flavor potential is there, then drain early for high calcium, baby the rind a little, and then let it go do its thing. But right, the core make is exactly the same, adapted for different equipment and situation.

[ArnaudForestier]

OK, thanks, Pav.  I had thought that even if the aspect ratios were the same or similar, that a substantially smaller wheel would mean enough of a dramatic difference in aging - e.g., especially for a rind-smear ripened cheese, the proteolytic, pH, salinity gradients - to mean it would be difficult to abstract to the larger wheels. 

Hear you on the milk.  And so it goes back to where it should, of course - with the quality of materials used. 

That said, this drive was prompted by your comments on mastering a given cheese, or family of cheeses; doing so, by manipulating key variables in the process.  I thought it was great advice.  This would seem to me to differ, however, from a kind of mastery of orthodoxy - from learning, say, from a Savoie producer, as an apprentice learns, by attention to detail and a rigorous standard of care. 

Perhaps I'm making too much of this.  I know my sincere desire is simply to master Gruyère, and a big part of that is to capture the deep sense of Alpage that I've tasted in the makes I've really loved.  Perhaps it's not so much after all about playing with multiple variations among pH, temp, time. renneting, cultures, strains, but about understanding a few key things, and doing them exceedingly well.   

[linuxboy]

even if the aspect ratios were the same or similar, that a substantially smaller wheel would mean enough of a dramatic difference in aging - e.g., especially for a rind-smear ripened cheese,

For a substantially smaller wheel, you're right. Going down to even a 4 lb wheel can be done, though. You can reduce diameter and get away with it. Leaves you more rind to sell, but it works.

This would seem to me to differ, however, from a kind of mastery of orthodoxy - from learning, say, from a Savoie producer, as an apprentice learns, by attention to detail and a rigorous standard of care. 

There is absolutely no need for this requirement, to apprentice. It is a useful shortcut. And some people require the relationship and structured environment to learn the details because they gain confidence and because this is their learning style. Orthodoxy is useful to the degree... often new approaches are easier and more consistent.

about understanding a few key things, and doing them exceedingly well.   

Yes, this is the case with alpine styles. Alpines are about milk and affinage (and cultures). The make is basically to stir everything in, heat the heck out of it, and make it into a wheel. Your pH is somewhat irrelevant, slight variability will not affect paste too much. Too much calcium for that even if you drain at 6.3. Time matters, but really more for moisture than acidity. Rennet matters some, but again, more about moisture, and rennet quality. A lamb rennet vs a calf rennet will not give you drastically different flavor profiles. Kid rennet will, but not the right rennet here. Cultures matter an extreme degree.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thank you Pav, always very helpful and very much appreciated. 

As you know, I'm still working on cementing my understanding of fundamentals - both practical technique, and background science.  That would include the dynamics of each of the specific cultures, in a make; per recent conversations, if MM100 is a faster acidifier than AromaB, why that is so is something I'd like, almost feel compelled, to learn.  Additionally, knowing that it isn't just species, but strains, that matter, another lacuna in my learning that I really feel obliged to master.  In case others might find this helpful - among your knowledge-travels, any particular recommendations to zero in on cheese cultures, their behavior, and even strain-specifics?

[linuxboy]

If you're after replicating just one type, just skip all the commercial culture BS and go autochthonous - take it from the Europeans. Heck that's what Danisco and Hansen and others do, like for Hansen's Emfour product. You don't need to learn all this stuff necessarily and experiment and do product formulation, unless you want to do it for fun. Just about nobody in the industry really goes for the microbio side, unless you're in academia. There are a very few, like Kendall at Lark's Meadow (who posts here) who even have experience in it. The core research here is done by people who have money, and government institutions. Not necessary to make great cheese.

And if you're making Alpine types, it's not about meso, but thermo. That's where the flavor is.

why that is so

Because the cells can transport food faster and have more mitochondria and have higher metabolisms. How that is relevant to Alpine cheeses I have no idea.

another lacuna in my learning that I really feel obliged to master

Alright, but why go through the trouble if you're not going isolate your own native strains and bank them. Or are you? That's a lot of work.

any particular recommendations to zero in on cheese cultures, their behavior, and even strain-specifics

Yes, but you're looking at something like 300 papers to read. Some of them are sizeable dissertations, 250+ pages. I can start sending them to you, but why anyone would go through that much torture I have no idea.

[ArnaudForestier]

I think part of it is just a native (and irrational) frustration that I don't know, and will never know,  everything the human mind can know, to be honest, Pav, but then we've talked about this.  Something of the tongue's tip taste of this stuff, only driving a pure hunger to know more - without the years, resources or wiring to do it.

As to acidification properties, goes back to this comment by Sailor, which stuck:

So you can either wait it out and ignore the times in the recipes, follow the recipe times and ignore the pH targets, or compensate for the slower pH curve. You can add more Aroma B to begin with to boost the acid producers, but you are also adding more of the other bacteria as well. Or you can add a little extra MA in the beginning to add more of just the strong acid producers. NOW you are creating a custom mix that defines you as a cheesemaker.

- if one can know something of why a species or strain behaves as it does, one can use the knowledge to make a cognitive leap to other techniques, or effective troubleshooting.  This was my reasoning, anyway.

As to learning something of individual strains, just based on several comments (I suspect, though can't specifically recall, many if not most by you), on the importance of the behavior of not only individual species, but individual strains, in realizing effects during makes.  Part of it is I just marvel at your seemingly open-ended, encyclopedic grasp of individual strains - you will reference "XYZ 213" and it is a world apart from anything I know; yet it seems important, the nagging feeling there are certain known behavior patterns (e.g., acidification curve) that would allow me to fine-tune a make (say, preservation of colloidal calcium).  I acknowledge I may be putting too much stock into "fine-tuning" as it is - all posts here notwithstanding - slowly sinking in that many cheeses, particularly among those I love to make and eat, have a fairly wide parameter of play. 

As to the "300" (sounds ominously like this...!), I'll tap you once I can confidently assert I have incorporated Fox's Fundamentals.

Edit: Sorry, also neglected your "autochthonous" notion.  I presume you mean, utilizing/developing native strains to one's locale, not ranching strains from, say, Jura, yes?  Do you simply mean, in the case of concentrating on an alpine-style, use raw milk and depend on its native microbiota, do a thermo/scalded make, age it in one's cave, and build an ambient flora environment, over time? 

[linuxboy]

Something of the tongue's tip taste of this stuff, only driving a pure hunger to know more - without the years, resources or wiring to do it.

Ah, well, you can do what most other people do. Blindly follow a recipe, understanding the basics, and then learn more and more over time. I mean, c'mon, the people who actually make cheese, even in smaller plants, they follow a process written down on a piece of paper and check various quality control points, sometimes knowing enough to make adjustments. Most of the time, they just make cheese and know very little beyond the basics.

why a species or strain behaves as it does, one can use the knowledge to make a cognitive leap to other techniques

That's true, but most of the important details are acidification rate given temp, time, and food. And that's a rather finite set of possibilities.

many cheeses, particularly among those I love to make and eat, have a fairly wide parameter of play

Right, I've written before about the core tradeoffs. It's pH at renneting, pH at drain/curd-fuse, and pH at salt. But again, not straightforward. Overshot your drain pH because moisture wasn't there? No problem, wash the curds with water, makes about the same cheese. Overshot your rennet pH? No problem, speed up the make a little to make up for it. it is forgiving, provided that you have good milk.

not ranching strains from, say, Jura, yes...age it in one's cave, and build an ambient flora environment, over time? 

No, I'm saying cheat. Use microbiology to your advantage. The reason old timers used their hands and sense to measure decision points is because the science was not available. If they had freeze dried culture on the farm, you bet they'd use it. And now that it's available, most small farmers do. By cheating I mean just that, farm out the strains from Jura and similar Savoie areas. They've done the work over the years of selectively isolating what works. Or use Emfour. Or get some of the strains from ATCC or the little culture shops in Europe. I could send some e-mails, import a few, but you'd need to bank them and do bulk culture yourself.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thanks for the further clarifications, Pav.  Another much appreciated exchange. 

Paul

[steampwr8]

So to achieve these goals what basic culture repertoire should I start with.

Thermophilic:(Single strains so I can mix?)

1. TA61

2. LH100

Mesophilic:

1. MA011

2. Aroma B or Flora Danica

3. MM100

Mold

1. P. Roqueforti

2. B. Linens

Ripening Agent

1. Propionic Shermanii

And?

[Helen]

steampwr,

If you would like to get started on reblochons or the likes of them, maybe some yeast (KL7) and geo. Some penicilium candidum could be useful if you want to make some camemberts.

[linuxboy]

That's a good start. When you get to complex natural rinds, it will start all over again in terms of rind ecosystems. Suggest you do one thing at a time (process/acidity control first)

[steampwr8]

This thread has been both thought provoking and enlightening.

I started with an easy question and learned so much more.

Feel free to add more. It is going into one of my manuals on cultures.

Thank you,

Mark

[Boofer]

Yeah, my head's spinning too! 

I'm just a lowly cheesemaker trying to find my way through the transmogrification of milk to something else. This discussion has been invigorating, but I'm worn out now.

-Boofer-