Camembert - Different Starter Cultures Discussion

[george]

Okay, so my experiments with white-mold cheeses have yielded one puzzling result.  To recap, I made four sets of cams and two bries - first two cams were with whole milk only and the only difference between the two was that one contained NE Cheesemaking C101 culture and the other straight Flora Danica.  Second two sets of cams were whole milk with added cream, and again one with C101 and one with FD.  Same deal with the bries - whole milk (no added cream), one with C101 and one with FD.  Although I suspected that I should have added a bit of C101 or something else to all the batches with FD, I didn't do it because I wanted to see what would happen without.

So the oddity is that all three makes that used FD had/have a problem with the PC growing as it should (or at least as it has with the C101).  They are a bit slower to get full coverage (maybe 2 days longer?), and it will get to a certain point and then the PC stops growing and seems to start dying off (turning brownish).  This is completely different from the C101 batches, where the PC just runs rampant and pretty much continues to do so.  It's usually around week 3 or 4 where the FD batches start to die off.

Why is this?  Would it change if I DID add a little C101 in future makes?  Or, alternatively, I just got some MM100.  Would the same thing happen if I used straight MM100 instead of either C101 or FD?  Seems like MM100 might be sort of halfway in between the two ...

Thankee!

[george]

I should have mentioned that when the die-back starts, the cheeses are far from ripe.  First set with FD started die-back around Week 4, with only a little bit of ripening/softness around the sides.  They didn't fully ripen until Week 8 (maybe 8-1/2, I checked them a few days ago and realized they were done - but haven't tasted one yet.  Tonight, probably.)

[Boofer]

Pictures?

That would be nice. I like to drool over cheese porn. 

-Boofer-

[linuxboy]

George, 2 things happen with FD

- Adds body (slows down rate of movement of food for the mold)
- Slow acidification, doesn't ever really get down to 4.5-4.6, tends to quit at 4.8 or so.

Both of these will slow down mold growth. Remember, candidum uses mostly lactate for food (meaning lactic acid), and requires the appropriate moisture, PF, and pH for that food to move through the cheese so it is consumed. You can use the FD, but have to preripen, and also have to keep the room really warm. Or adjunct with normal Lactococcus.

[george]

Ah, my poor PC, I kilt it!   

I'm also feeling a bit moron-ish this morning - pre-ripen?  I'm having a duh moment.

Boofer, I will get you your porn later today - you will be treated to a picture of the skankiest-looking Brie I've ever seen in my life.   

[linuxboy]

Pre-ripen means you use a mild acidifier like FD before adding anything else, and let it sit there to increase population and flavor without increasing pH severely. Typically .1-.2 drop.

[george]

LB - thank you.  The "pre" part was what had me confused, I was thinking "you mean I need to PRE-ripen and then do the regular ripening time?" till I realized the recipes I'm using don't call for any ripening time at all, rennet a few minutes after culture addition (200 Easy Cheeses).  So sorry for that silly question. 

Oh, but how warm is "really warm"?

I have another question about MM100, also.  I made a couple of goudas this past week, using MM100 instead of the C101.  On both of them I had perfectly good floc times, but when all was said and done the curds seemed awfully weak, and busted up quite a bit more than usual while stirring.  It's the same milk, etc., as I've been using every couple of days for all different sorts of cheeses - I made a Havarti yesterday, also with MM100, that didn't have that problem.  Is there something about the MM100 that would cause that to happen with the short Gouda ripening time (only 30 minutes)?  Should I plan on longer ripening when using MM100 than when using the C101?  (no reliable way to measure pH, so I'm going by feel on everything).  This may also be a silly question, but I can't think of any reason why, all else being equal, a culture would make such a difference in the curd strength.  It doesn't seem right, but really, nothing else was different in these makes.  Very confuzzled, I am.

Yes, I know I'm jumping all over the place, but as the scorpion said to the frog, it's my nature.   

(except without the "I just stung you and killed you" part)

[george]

And here are the delayed pics of the brie with FD - this is a few days shy of 8 weeks, but it's pretty much looked like this since about week 4 or 5 - still quite firm in the center.

[george]

And the last set of cams with FD - first pic is the alien cam as compared to the perfectly normal-looking ones made a few days before with C101.  Second one is just for fun - no other cams have come up with this odd ... errrr ... shape.  I'm wondering if I stick them in the dehydrator for a few hours I can later sell them to someone using pulleys in their Dutch press ...

[susanky]

I made some cams that looked EXACTLY like your pulleys!  In places that thick wrinkly rind came off to reveal the normal white rind underneath.  Contamination?
Susan

[george]

I thought of that, but it doesn't make sense that 3 makes came out perfectly fine, and 3 makes didn't, where the only difference was the FD as the culture.  A little too consistent.   

[Boofer]

Excellent! Very unusual cheese wheels. How old are the pulleys? 

-Boofer-

[george]

Ha!  The pulleys were made on 3/21, so they're just shy of 4 weeks.  Only reason they look as good as they do (rind, not shape!) is because I sprayed 'em with some more PC on 4/6.  After the initial growth, the PC never took off enough on these to even fill in the "holes" from the imprint of the embroidery mat.  *sigh*

[smilingcalico]

Lmao, great thread!  Interesting info from LB.  I never had an issue with FD and Camembert, but that might be because I always added PC and Geo, so maybe Geo is fed differently than PC. 
I can't get as technical as LB, but I believe you're on to something with the acidity and weak curd issue in your Gouda.  Rennet as I understand, does like a bit of acidity to do its work. In our typical Gouda make, we add the culture as soon as the milk is in the vat.  It then takes us right about an hour to bring it to renneting temp.  I don't have a pH meter yet, trying to get the boss to spring for it so I can learn a bit more, and standardize to an extent.  I guess the good thing is I'm learning more to go by curd feel. Anyhow, we get a good strong curd set.  So while the culture is only slowly working in the beginning due to low temperature, it's been active for quite some time before dropping the rennet.

[george]

Good idea, smiling, I'll try that next time - thanks!  I'm really only making the gouda for my milkmaid - while I prefer havarti over gouda hands-down, she's exactly the opposite.  She even liked the ones I made last fall/winter, that I thought were absolutely terrible, but she raved over them.  So, ya know ... if I'm going to be sharing all this cheese with her, it would be nice if I actually made some she likes better!

I've sorta been tossing the MM100 in almost anything that's not cheddar-like - want to see how it tastes with that v. FD v. C101.  Love that experimentation!  I'm currently messing around with mozz, trying to achieve a nice firm grate-able one that I can grate, pop into ziplocs and freeze for instant pizza later.  'Cause heaven forfend I should actually have to think a WHOLE DAY AHEAD to make the mozz before I make the pizza.