Author Topic: Reblochon chronicles  (Read 8247 times)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2011, 04:30:08 PM »
Thanks for the kind thought, Helen.  Everything I've learned about cheesemaking has come from this site, and its very gifted and generous set of makers.  I feel really grateful to have come upon it. 

I know it's a comfort for me, too, having a reliable meter - in tandem with sensory feedback, to have knowing key points during the make in an objective, measurable way, knowing what's going on with these tiniest of critters and their substrate, is really satisfying.  Best of luck ahead!

Paul

Edit:  Just saw this, smiling:

Quote from: smilingcalico
I still haven't gotten around to reading that text.  It's hard enough to get to the library before it closes, and don't know if they'll even have that book.  I'd probably even need to shoot down to UC Davis to get a look at it.  Wish I could talk my boss into buying it for me.  Anyone know if I could write it off as a deduction on taxes?

I think I'm lucky to live close to UW Madison, with its extensive ag/dairy/cheese science departments, and associated ease of obtaining the texts.  Have you tried interlibrary loan? 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 04:39:03 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2011, 04:58:39 PM »
The risk of "late fermentation" also gives pause,
Overthinking this. You can't apply emmenthaler technology to beaufort. Doesn't work that way. Whereas late acidification is terrible for emmenthaler because of the narrow range optimal for propionic, it tends to be in equilibrium in beaufort. Emmenthaler has less salt, temps are different, etc. Also strains differ, different dynamics. Those changes from helveticus to bulgaricus (really, the change wasn't to bulgaricus per se all the time, but the new strains were often called bulgaricus because of their properties. Remember helveticus and bulgaricus characteristics before genotyping were done on their properties, like Galactose + or -) were made before the current advancements in strain typing and characteristic profiling.

Also, Fox is right, but somewhat incomplete. You can adjunct with ST without adversely affecting flavor, yet getting the acidity curve you want. Look at modern cheeses. Cheddar often has ST in it now because of phage issues and to ensure acidification (not much worse worse than having a 10,000 liter vat fail due to phage). Low fat cheddar is made with ST to give it better structure and mouthfeel. Soft cheeses are adjuncted with it for acidification and to stabilize, etc, etc. Look at what I invented with my combo of extreme flavor formation with Leuconostoc and extreme texture and stabilization with ST. Someone's probably taken my idea and is making bank with it, and if not, it's bound to happen. You're not limited by tradition. Try and see. Without alpage milk and without better strains than LH, you won't get to the exact flavor profile you want, anyway. It'll be good, though.

The dynamic of faster rennet drop and slower drain drop is accomplished naturally with raw milk through meso and ST. Then you scald it, really stops the fermentation. Beaufort scald is drastic, huge rise over 30 mins. Then drain and keep in the warm room, and slowly, slowly it will build up acidity like a tomme

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2011, 05:15:52 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Pav.  Yes, on the risk of late fermentation, I glossed over the fact this was in specific reference to emmental, which obviously has an entirely different aging profile.  I saw "helveticus" in general relation to "propionic cheeses," and given the usual dearth of discussion on Beaufort, specifically, I made an illogical leap.  Thanks for pointing it up.  I also recall the means used to name, formerly - the journey of some of these species among genera seems pretty wild. 

Per my reasoning above, I'm seeking a faster initial ripening, to renneting target; and a slower draining curve.  It seemed the culprits formerly were both a low meso inoculation %, and, perhaps, too heavy an ST component, or the symbiosis of both ST and LH, at any rate, was making for a fast drop during draining.  I'm just curious - you mention that LH can have a weird proteolytic effect on the cheese, and I see from other articles evidence corroborating this.  I didn't see Fox's omitting ST, as much as indicating helveticus's association with Beaufort - without mention of this proteolytic issue.  Searching for more, today, I saw it it elsewhere, too (some handbook on technology, wrote "helveticus" as the sole accompaniment to Beaufort, if my memory is correct). 

Given I am using a pasteurized milk - can you go into more, precisely, what sort of proteolytic trouble is one inviting using (in this case, a blend of L. delbrueckii ssp. lactis and) L. helveticus, with little or no ST?  I ask, because given:

Quote from: Pav
The dynamic of faster rennet drop and slower drain drop is accomplished naturally with raw milk through meso and ST. Then you scald it, really stops the fermentation. Beaufort scald is drastic, huge rise over 30 mins. Then drain and keep in the warm room, and slowly, slowly it will build up acidity like a tomme

In following Sailor's recipe - initially, 1/8 DVI MM100, 1/16 "+" ST, 1/12 LH, 1/24 prop., I got a really fast renneting ripening, and a really fast drain drop; going with the 1% MM100, and the same thermo ratios, I again got a really fast drain drop.  Both times, I achieved the cooking rise in the time prescribed.  So, I concluded this has something to do with the ST component, as its the "fast" thermo acidifier, and hence my desire to try a lower (or no) ST, and higher LH. 

Perhaps it all comes down to the fact I'm seeking a slower drain drop for no other logical reason than....that's what I see in recipes, and what has been done traditionally (I see makes that go up to 24 hours in the press).  So, I was going backwards...trying to slow down the drain drop, rather than asking why that might, or might not be important.  I better understand the dynamics and importance of vat pH changes, now.  I have to admit, I don't know why one would want a drain period of 8 hours press, 24 in the hoop at room temp to reach salting pH, v. 8 hours press, and half that period, to achieve the same thing.  And if ST would cut that final drop time in half without any deleterious effects - or even, an improvement in quality - heck yes, I'd be the first to jettison my traditionalist blinders, which I'm aware can be a problem for me. 

Edit:  Want to express a BIG thank you to Pav, once again.  What is at his mind's readiness is still reeling inside mine, so will have to wait for later to pull it together so it's helpful to others, but suffice it to say he once again lent a huge hand.  Thanks, Pav. :)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 05:51:10 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2011, 12:56:52 AM »
Thanks to you both for this discussion. I must admit though, I'd have to be in the Space Shuttle to understand a lot of it...it's way over my head. Very technical. I do grasp some of it as it flitters by, and for that I am grateful.

In my second Beaufort, done in December, I made a slight measuring error in my LH. Instead of 1/12 tsp, I ended up putting in 3/16 tsp (don't ask!). It looks good so far, if the rind is any indicator (no, it's not). 1/8 Aromatic B, 1/16 thermo, 1/16 propionic. Hey, around Halloween I should know for certain.  ;)

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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2011, 02:43:21 AM »
Hey Boof - I have to give a big hand to both Pav and Francois, who really came through today with some extraordinary help - a good marriage of background science and practical application. 

They both have the gifts I don't possess - both the wiring to easily handle this stuff, and the ability to make it clear and easily understood for folks like myself.  I wish I had either gift, but like you, I'm trying. 

All preface to saying, they were really generous, though I know both are busy; so I will do my best to honor what I learned from them today with a "Beaufort 3" thread, as I'm in the middle of a make as I write this.  I hope my notes and thoughts derived from them are correct, and do justice to these two gents' thoughts.  Stay tuned, on another thread.
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Offline Boofer

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2011, 05:13:06 AM »
Very interested. As I've said before, "looking over your shoulder...".

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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 11:12:10 AM »
Very interested.  As I've said before, "looking over your shoulder...".

-Boofer-


Thanks, Boof.  The make went pretty smoothly, and just finishing up the drain/press this morning.  Will hope to write up "Beaufort 3" imminently.  (It's a good thing you're looking over my shoulder, as I'm doing the same, as well as craning my neck to try to soak up all that "the gurus" are teaching....!).

Meanwhile, back to reblochon, my candidum has exploded.  I'd like an even "mat" of both linens and white - in this pic, not even sure whether the "white" is yeast (I'll include geo here) or candidum, knocked back and told to behave (I really nothing about candidum dynamics, never used it before).  Anyway, this would be an ideal result, for me (thanks, Yoav):



I'd say I need to spray with a heavy linens wash every other day, but my gut tells me - as I say, I have zero experience with candidum, or even "wet" linens, smear cheeses - that I need to knock this back with some pretty decent smearing.  Or pat it down?  Any suggestions?

edit:  well, that was easy (I think; I hope!).  Simply washed back with a linens brine.  If they continue to develop like this, with a sticky white/red blending, I'll be really happy.  Pics (taken really quickly - sorry for the quality):


« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 01:31:50 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2011, 08:06:06 PM »
Paul,

All my reblochons have this phase when white seems to take over. However, after a couple of good washing, b.linens becomes pre-dominant again.

Nice looking cheeses!

- Helen
 

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2011, 09:12:50 PM »
Thanks a lot, Helen.  After washing this once, it did seem like the right option, too - I was very happy to see the result.  On the other hand, I've been in conversation with Francois, and based on that exchange, I am curious to see what happens if I just let the ecology cascade more or less develop naturally; see what happens if the candidum is left undisturbed and dies back.  I may try both, as I've got 6 wheels. 
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Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 12:22:34 AM »
Whoa, Nelly - very interesting.  I've been washing 4 of the 6 wheels with 3% linens, the other 2, I've simply been allowing the p. candidum to take its course.  On the latter 2, there is still a thick mat of spongy candidum, and whiff of mushroom, and even a faint touch of ammonia; on the 4 regularly-washed wheels, man - linens funk!  Additionally, they are getting really soft to the touch (esp. from the sides - top and bottom, less so).  From 2 to 2 1/2 weeks only, between the 2 makes!  I would not have expected this fast of a development - was shooting for 45-60 days, per what I read was "normal."

Couple views of the "unwashed," p. candidum-heavy wheels:




And a pic of a wheel that has received regular washing.  Note the color, and the soft, caved-in indentation:



I know Yoav has indicated reblochons get no linens wash; besides perhaps an early surfeit of linens, and keeping in mind these are "stabilized" wheels with thermo cultures, I'm surprised by this rapid fire (perhaps, in a deleterious way, in terms of flavor, aroma and texture?) proteolysis, and linens development, ahead of the curve.  Any thoughts, here? 

Edit:

Lol...my instincts told me that even though I was seeing the above, the firmness at top and bottom meant we have a ways to go, yet. 

My instincts lost, and my impatience and tyro's overeagerness to investigate won out:




Lessons learned.  If it's obvious I've got development, not sure if it's clear, but this is definitely a lesson in "ripening from the outside in" and "gradients."  Mom and lad are drooling their praise, but they are fam, after all; I do think an objective appraisal would say, taste is getting there, developing nicely - just not there, yet. It's actually been some time since I've had a true reblochon - I've forgotten - this liquid an outer area, a flaw, at this stage of the game (with the inner paste still rather dense, pas leger, still holding up firmly?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 01:36:31 AM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 02:42:22 AM »
Paul,

I love how you experiment with things.

My reblochons (and all my smeared cheeses) usually go through this phase... to the point where handling them will cause the outer layer to squish under my finger. I am wondering if that might not be some case of light slip skin.

I usually displace them to the regular fridge for a couple of weeks once they become too fragile to handle without irreversible damage to the rind. I find that this strengthens the rind and after two to three weeks, I move them back to my "cave"/wine fridge to continue the ripening.

I am not saying that this is the perfect thing to do... just what has been working for me.


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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2011, 02:54:57 PM »
Thanks, Helen.  I really am sticking to alpine styles, so not very adventuresome, but this first foray into soft, stinkier cheeses has been fun. 

You nailed it - slip skin.  Now I know what that particular bundle of joy is all about.  This newbie, accustomed to dry-salting his beauforts and getting away without a drying off period, did the same thing with these high-Aw cheeses, and paid the price.  From exchange with Pav, should have done a drying off at 50-55F, 70-80%RH; these went right into my cave at 53F, and their own aging containers at 95-96% RH.  Duh. ::)

Anyway, Pav recommended wrapping and putting in the regular refrigerator, just as you recommend, Helen.  I don't have any cheese paper, and was wondering if wax paper, parchment paper, or butcher block paper is a decent sub?  Also, a dumb question - but do you continue turning the wheels, and unwrapping them occasionally to vent ammonia, and allow O2 for linens health (I should say, an attempt at managing further linens development?). 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 03:04:14 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2011, 03:07:51 PM »
Paul,

For my first reblochon, I wrapped them in cheese paper and decided never to do that again. The cheese rind became very moist and stuck to the paper.

Now, I just place the mini-cave/tupperware in the vegetable tray in the fridge. I take the box out every other day (to vent) and turn them once to twice a week. I really got good results by doing that and after two weeks, I can place them back in the cave if I wish so. It depends on how many cheeses I have ready at this time... there is such a thing as too many cheeses ready at the same time.

I would not use wax paper unless you are sure it is breathable.

Letting my cheeses air-dry was the key to me getting slip skin under control. I recently learned that there is such thing as too much air-dry. The temperature was cool so I let my blue air dry on my kitchen counter (I know... this is bad. I won't do it again!) and there was an unexpected very warm day... now my blue is very dry, very hard. Live and learn, they say!

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2011, 03:16:32 PM »
Thanks, Helen, really helpful.  So it sounds like you kept the RH up by keeping in your container, but slowed further liquefaction by the cooler temp.  Will give it a go.  When I was brining (most of my cheeses now just happen to be dry-salted), I had a separate area of 70%RH, but warmer temp, 65F or so.  It will be a challenge to do a drying regimen of 50-55F, 70-75%RH, as I've only the one cave. (And I've tapped my wife's longsuffering, in asking for more space for an additional cooler!... :o).
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Re: Reblochon chronicles
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2011, 04:41:57 PM »
Helen - you might be surprised how much moisture is inside your blue. Vacuum bag it to trap the remaining moisture in and let it age some.